Protestants ask yourself (if you dare...)

[Cepha]

Jul 5, 2008 22:42:06 GMT -5 Ramon said:

There are Anti-Catholic Orthodox Christians I guess some are really negative towards other Faiths.

Actually, they didn't know much about their own faith, so how could I expect them to know about mine?

I've realized that...people that are anti-anything don't have a strong background in history. They pick up their knowledge from a certain point that supports their beliefs, but won't dare look beyond that.

I remember when I firs came back to Catholicism after being an anti-Catholic, I tested my faith over and over and over and I just couldn't beat it. I had to accept it. I was like Thomas and then I placed my fingers in his wounds!

Amen!

Agree, although I will also argue that the phrase "The Catholic Church" as used by the Church Fathers and the Seven Ecumenical Councils is a description of the Christ' Holy Church and not a reference to the Church of Rome alone [now refer as The Roman Catholic Church]. It was about the Whole Church [West and East]. The word "Catholic" simply means "universal". Only after 1054AD was this phrase change its meaning [to refer to the Church of Rome]. On the same token, the Early Church never calls herself the "Roman Catholic Church".

That's a given...before 1054, there was only 1 "universal" Church. After that, there are two factions of one Church. That's how I see it.

By the way, The Church doesn't call itself "The Roman Catholic Church". It only uses the term Roman to describe which "rite" of The Church is being spoken of. The "official" name of The Church is just "The Catholic Church".

From what I have study it seems both sides excommunicated and past Anathemas agaisnt each other. Pope Leo IX excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople, and a council of the Patriarch excommunicated the Papal delegates. At least this is my understanding of the situation.

I don't know that whole deal, but I heard on some documentaries that the Roman Pope excommunicated the Orthodox Pope, then he got excommunicated in return, then it turned into a whole big mess where they didn't talk to each other until The Orthodox Church called The Roman Church to it's aid when Muslims were on their way (which was the cause of The First Crusade).

Yes, I am truly sadden about The Great Schism, but what is done is done. We can only change the future, and I just hope there will be more dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics.

As far as I'm concerned, you be you, I'll be me and as long as there is respect, we could worship together.

That is interesting about the Friars.

Now, when I pass an Orthodox Church, I genuflect as well.

BTW, I love the Greek Catholics too. It's just so wierd how many rites there are (The Byzantian Rite is awesome...some fo the most beautiful artwork I've ever seen).

O.k. As I understand it a Patriarch calls himself "Pope" but this word simply means "Papa" or "Father". As I said before, we do not have anything close to the Roman Papacy. We believe each Bishop, even the Patriarchs, are equal. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is the senior Bishop, and while he does have some rights, he cannot interfere with other "autocephalous", meaning "self-governing", Churches. We do, however, all share the same Faith. I am sure your girlfriend's friend didn't mean that we have "9 Popes" in the same way Catholics understand what a "Pope" is.

I really got to find an Orthodox Priest around here who'll work with me and talk to me and give me the straight story.

I called an Orthodox Church in California because it was 5pm here and the Churches here were closed and they were still opened over there. When the receptionist picked up, I asked for a Priest she said none was available and that she might be able to help me but I told her it was a theological question...she told me to try her.

I asked her about Catholics receiving communion at Orthodox Churches and before I could finish my sentence, she said "no". Then when I tried to explain exactly "what" I was asking, she said really coldly and sternly "we are not in communion with The Catholic Church". She didn't even allow me to finish my question. So I said to her...you're right...you couldn't help me.

I ended up finding out my answer that "yes", we can receive the sacraments at your Church "if" the Priest there allows it (for example, if there's no Cath Church around, if one is on their deathbed and need to confess or receive last rites, etc...).

Like I PM'd you...we have to go to Mass together (in your Church, then if you're interested, in mine).

Pax.

[Ramon]

Jul 5, 2008 23:11:00 GMT -5 Cepha said:

That's a given...before 1054, there was only 1 "universal" Church. After that, there are two factions of one Church. That's how I see it.

By the way, The Church doesn't call itself "The Roman Catholic Church". It only uses the term Roman to describe which "rite" of The Church is being spoken of. The "official" name of The Church is just "The Catholic Church".

Thank-you. Much like the Orthodox Church. We call it the "Eastern Orthodox Church" to describe the Rite, but there also Western Rite
Orthodox Churches [But there are very few Orthodox Churches that are "Western Rite"]. The Official name of The Church is "The Orthodox Church".

Jul 5, 2008 23:11:00 GMT -5 Cepha said:

I don't know that whole deal, but I heard on some documentaries that the Roman Pope excommunicated the Orthodox Pope, then he got excommunicated in return, then it turned into a whole big mess where they didn't talk to each other until The Orthodox Church called The Roman Church to it's aid when Muslims were on their way (which was the cause of The First Crusade).

This is what I have study as well.

Jul 5, 2008 23:11:00 GMT -5 Cepha said:

BTW, I love the Greek Catholics too. It's just so wierd how many rites there are (The Byzantian Rite is awesome...some fo the most beautiful artwork I've ever seen).

I love the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. I love the Holy Icons from Orthodoxy and Eastern Rite Catholicism! And I love Byzantine, Greek, Romanian, etc Chants! They really lift your spirit up.

Jul 5, 2008 23:11:00 GMT -5 Cepha said:

I really got to find an Orthodox Priest around here who'll work with me and talk to me and give me the straight story.

Yes, I will talk to my Priest about this as well. Try talking to a Antiochian Priest, they are very friendly! Here is a link to some Antiochian Churches in New York--->www.antiochian.org/parishes/statedirectory/us/NY

Jul 5, 2008 23:11:00 GMT -5 Cepha said:

I called an Orthodox Church in California because it was 5pm here and the Churches here were closed and they were still opened over there. When the receptionist picked up, I asked for a Priest she said none was available and that she might be able to help me but I told her it was a theological question...she told me to try her.

I asked her about Catholics receiving communion at Orthodox Churches and before I could finish my sentence, she said "no". Then when I tried to explain exactly "what" I was asking, she said really coldly and sternly "we are not in communion with The Catholic Church". She didn't even allow me to finish my question. So I said to her...you're right...you couldn't help me.

I ended up finding out my answer that "yes", we can receive the sacraments at your Church "if" the Priest there allows it (for example, if there's no Cath Church around, if one is on their deathbed and need to confess or receive last rites, etc...).

Yes, the Divine Eucharist can be given to Roman Catholics by an Orthodox Priest or Bishop, but this is on rare occasions and not the norm of Orthodoxy. Generally, only Orthodox Christians are allow to receive the Divine Eucharist. Roman Catholics and Protestants are excluded from the Holy Gifts because there is no "unity". Has you said, if one is on there deathbed, there is a exception to this rule. But unfortunately, we are forbidden to take the Divine Eucharist in a Catholic or Protestant Church.

Jul 5, 2008 23:11:00 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Like I PM'd you...we have to go to Mass together (in your Church, then if you're interested, in mine).



Pax.

O.k, I have been to Catholic Masses before. I went to a Catholic school at 7th grade and attended a Roman Catholic High School [Cardinal Hayes HS, in the Bronx].

Blessings,
Ramon

[Cepha]

Jul 5, 2008 23:51:33 GMT -5 Ramon said:

Thank-you. Much like the Orthodox Church. We call it the "Eastern Orthodox Church" to describe the Rite, but there also Western Rite
Orthodox Churches [But there are very few Orthodox Churches that are "Western Rite"]. The Official name of The Church is "The Orthodox Church".

LOL! That was one of the arguing points I had with the few "not-real" Orthodox guys I was debating with. If they were supposedly united, why all the different rites (but they didn't know how to explain the "rites" of Orthodoxy).

I love the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. I love the Holy Icons from Orthodoxy and Eastern Rite Catholicism! And I love Byzantine, Greek, Romanian, etc Chants! They really lift your spirit up.

Do you guys have chanting like we do (Gregorian Chants)?

My girlfriend (Greek Orthodox) has some icons here at home. Everytime I walk by one, I'll stop and look.

I like the theory behind the icon...they purposely distort the image of the person depicted because they feel they cannot reproduce the beauty of those in the picture. That shows so much reverance.

We have a member here who paints beautiful icons in our Christian Artwork Board. fideidefensor.proboards80.com/index.cgi?board=art&action=display&thread=179&page=1

Yes, I will talk to my Priest about this as well. Try talking to a Antiochian Priest, they are very friendly! Here is a link to some Antiochian Churches in New York--->www.antiochian.org/parishes/statedirectory/us/NY

Looking forward to it.

Yes, the Divine Eucharist can be given to Roman Catholics by an Orthodox Priest or Bishop, but this is on rare occasions and not the norm of Orthodoxy. Generally, only Orthodox Christians are allow to receive the Divine Eucharist. Roman Catholics and Protestants are excluded from the Holy Gifts because there is no "unity". Has you said, if one is on there deathbed, there is a exception to this rule. But unfortunately, we are forbidden to take the Divine Eucharist in a Catholic or Protestant Church.

Are you forbidden to receive it from The Catholic Church because you do not think it's an invalid Sacrament?

Does Orthodoxy not recognize Peter as founder of The Catholic Church?

(CC for Catholic Church from now on, OC for Orthodox Church )

I know in The Protestant churches, they let anybody participate in their communion. They don't see it as a Sacrament, but as a symbolic ritual. They don't take it literally when Jesus said "Truly, truly" that it is His flesh & blood.

O.k, I have been to Catholic Masses before. I went to a Catholic school at 7th grade and attended a Roman Catholic High School [Cardinal Hayes HS, in the Bronx].

I've heard a lot of former Catholics say that, as if (in their case, I'm not saying this in yours) just because they went to Catholic school growing up, they knew everything they needed to know about Catholicism.

I was a Catholic my whole life and didn't know what I had until I lost it.

I didn't become a Catholic in my heart until I was in my late 30's. When I really needed God in my life, He brought me back home. In my case, home was in The Universal Church.

When we go to my Mass, I'll explain things to you from our perspective and you can explain things to me from your perspective (is Mass what you guys call your worship servicce as well?).

Blessings,
Ramon

Pax

[teresahrc]

What confuses me is how people say that Jesus = the Word of God, and the Bible = the Word of God therefore Jesus= the Bible ??

I'm wondering what exactly is meant by Jesus= the Word of God.

Isn't the greek word for "Word" LOGOS, and isn't the greek word for "scripture" GRAPHE ?

Just because we translate them both as "word" doesn't mean they are the same.
I'd like to hear someone else's opinion of this.

Teresa

[teresahrc]

Ramon, I have a couple questions for you; my husband is tired of me talking about it with him and doesn't have an answer for me, please don't take the question personally:

In books I have read about Orthodoxy, they acknowledge the bishop of Rome as the "first among equals" and the elder brother, etc. It seems that early Church Fathers acknowledged the "primacy" of the "pope" (for example in the council of Chalcedon)
So, of course I ask what happened because now it seems like Orthodox ignore the Pope altogether. I know that they said the Pope is "heretical" and I understand the arguements for this; however, shouldn't the course of action against heresy have been confronting the Pope at that time just as St. Paul confronted Peter when he was being a hypocrit (letter to Galatians)?
I just don't see how the chair of Peter could have fallen in to so great a heresy so as to be rejected by the Church. Didn't Jesus tell Peter that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against His Church?
Please know that my questions are sincere because many times I considered being Orthodox instead of Catholic. It was mainly because of these issues that I became Catholic. My husband is Orthodox, and I am just trying to better understand everything.

So far, I have tried to "summerize" how the Orthodox and Catholics see each other.
It seems like Catholics see Orthodox as schismatic and Orthodox see Catholics as heretical.

Do you agree? Please tell me what you think about all this.

Or maybe we should start a new post like "understanding the Orthodox church?"
Teresa

[Cepha]

Hey you two!

Get a room!



I started a Board on Orthodox Christianity;

fideidefensor.proboards80.com/index.cgi?board=orthodox

I think that Orthodox Christianity is out of place to discuss on a Potestant themed thread.

[Cepha]

Jul 6, 2008 12:26:55 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

Do you agree? Please tell me what you think about all this.

Or maybe we should start a new post like "understanding the Orthodox church?"
Teresa

LOL!

Look at that!

I started the Orthodox Board before I even read what you wrote!

;D

[Ramon]

Jul 6, 2008 9:10:13 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Do you guys have chanting like we do (Gregorian Chants)?

My girlfriend (Greek Orthodox) has some icons here at home. Everytime I walk by one, I'll stop and look.

I like the theory behind the icon...they purposely distort the image of the person depicted because they feel they cannot reproduce the beauty of those in the picture. That shows so much reverance.

We have a member here who paints beautiful icons in our Christian Artwork Board. fideidefensor.proboards80.com/index.cgi?board=art&action=display&thread=179&page=1

We have some Gregorian Chants. You can probably listen to them on YouTube. Yes, I truly love Holy Icons. They instruct us in matters pertaining to the Christian faith. They remind us of this faith. They lift us up to the prototypes which they symbolize, to a higher level of thought and feeling. They arouse us to imitate the virtues of the holy personages depicted on them [etc].

Jul 6, 2008 9:10:13 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Are you forbidden to receive it from The Catholic Church because you do not think it's an invalid Sacrament?

Does Orthodoxy not recognize Peter as founder of The Catholic Church?

(CC for Catholic Church from now on, OC for Orthodox Church )

I know in The Protestant churches, they let anybody participate in their communion. They don't see it as a Sacrament, but as a symbolic ritual. They don't take it literally when Jesus said "Truly, truly" that it is His flesh & blood.

We are not allow to receive the Divine Eucharist in any Catholic Church because has I said before they is no "unity". We firmly believe that our Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church [thus the Original Church]. We believe that we have kept the faith of the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, the God-Bearing Fathers, and the Seven Ecumenical Councils. I am not saying this to put Catholics down, its just how we [Orthodox] see things. If we believe that our Church is the correct Church then taking the Holy Gifts in a Catholic Church makes no sense. If you are not Orthodox, you will not be allow to receive the Divine Eucharist in any Orthodox Church. We do not believe that the Bread and Wine is simply "symbolic". We firmly believe that we are partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ [1 Cor 10:16; 11: 18-34]. But just because the Roman Catholic Church believe the same thing does not mean we are in "unity".

Second, we firmly believe that Saint Peter was the Prince of the Apostles ["First among Equals"], as Scriptures and the Holy Fathers proclaim. But this has nothing to do with the Church of Rome per say. The Bishop of Rome is not the Church Leader or that he is "infallbible" when he speaks "ex cathedral". We do not believe in the Roman Papacy.

Jul 6, 2008 9:10:13 GMT -5 Cepha said:

I've heard a lot of former Catholics say that, as if (in their case, I'm not saying this in yours) just because they went to Catholic school growing up, they knew everything they needed to know about Catholicism.

I was a Catholic my whole life and didn't know what I had until I lost it.

I didn't become a Catholic in my heart until I was in my late 30's. When I really needed God in my life, He brought me back home. In my case, home was in The Universal Church.

When we go to my Mass, I'll explain things to you from our perspective and you can explain things to me from your perspective (is Mass what you guys call your worship servicce as well?).

Pax

I am not saying that I know everything about Catholicism. I am still studying Catholicism and Orthodoxy [reading books, etc]. Even when I was in Catholic School, they never taught us everything. We have to "run" through the Course, because really studying about the Tenets of Catholicism in half of a semester is impossible! Believe me, the many things I know now about Catholicism, Orthodoxy, the Church Fathers, and Church History was self-studying! I read Books personally. I do know how a Catholic Mass is run, and stuff. We have Mass in School and the teacher explain to us during class what is all about. But again, they did not give us a "exhaustive" account of the Mass. Oh, did I tell you that I was a A+ Student in Religion Class? ;D

We do not call it "Mass" but "Divine Liturgy". Different names for the same thing

Blessings,
Ramon

P.S, teresahrc- I will answer your questions in the other blog.

[reformed]

Actually, I have. I have the collection of the Apostolic Fathers, and I have read several portions of Irenaeus of Lyons, Justin Martyr, Origen, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Tertullian, Augustine, Athanasius etc.

Well, this is principally since I started out as a Catholic, and I deconverted a couple weeks ago...

[Cepha]

Nov 1, 2008 12:38:19 GMT -5 reformed said:

Actually, I have. I have the collection of the Apostolic Fathers, and I have read several portions of Irenaeus of Lyons, Justin Martyr, Origen, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Tertullian, Augustine, Athanasius etc.

Well, this is principally since I started out as a Catholic, and I deconverted a couple weeks ago...

Were you Catechized then renounced your faith officially by proclamation directly "to" The Church?

And...maybe God doesn't want you to be a Universal Christian.
Maybe you'd be a better Christian as a Denominational Christian.
Which is cool.
Where ever God want's you, that's what's important.

[teresahrc]

My grandmother (unofficially) deconverted to marry my grandfather. She was still a Christian, and I'm SURE she is in heaven because I'm 99.99% convinced that she is praying for her family(in heaven--she passed away more than 30 years ago) because in the past 10 or so years, 8 of her grandchildren/great grandchildren and a daughter in law have all converted to the Catholic Church!
My "e name" is teresa in her honor.

teresa

[Cepha]

Nov 1, 2008 12:38:19 GMT -5 reformed said:

Actually, I have. I have the collection of the Apostolic Fathers, and I have read several portions of Irenaeus of Lyons, Justin Martyr, Origen, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Tertullian, Augustine, Athanasius etc.

Well, this is principally since I started out as a Catholic, and I deconverted a couple weeks ago...

Did you ever read The Teachings of The 12 Apostles (The Didache)?

[Stizzle]

Apr 10, 2008 13:07:28 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Why aren't you allowed to study The Church Fathers?

If God trusted them to reveal The Word of God to the world (The Holy Bible), why can't you trust them or why are you not allowed to trust them or even study them?

The Catholic Church is the Mother of Harlots in Revelation 17! It's the only church in history that fits all of these prophecies. The Pope has the spirit of the Anti-Christ in him and I'll prove it if needed!

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Who wears these particular colours and precious stones???

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

There are three cities referred to as Babylon in The BOOK; the actual city and 2 others... what are the other cities??? and what are the abominations?

6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

What is synonymous with a "woman" in the NT??? And what entity was known for killing the saints???

7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The angel knows...what does he reveal???

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

What is the beast or rather who is going into perdition??? (same thing really)... Who are those whose names are not written in the Book of Life???

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The mind that hath WISDOM... What is the city that sits on 7 hills? And what woman sits there???

Plenty of questions and I have seen a myriad of answers... let's all take a look shall we???


YEHOVAH BE PRAISED...

[Cepha]

Nov 5, 2008 16:49:13 GMT -5 @Stizzle said:

Apr 10, 2008 13:07:28 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Why aren't you allowed to study The Church Fathers?

If God trusted them to reveal The Word of God to the world (The Holy Bible), why can't you trust them or why are you not allowed to trust them or even study them?

The Catholic Church is the Mother of Harlots in Revelation 17! It's the only church in history that fits all of these prophecies. The Pope has the spirit of the Anti-Christ in him and I'll prove it if needed!

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Who wears these particular colours and precious stones???

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

There are three cities referred to as Babylon in The BOOK; the actual city and 2 others... what are the other cities??? and what are the abominations?

6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

What is synonymous with a "woman" in the NT??? And what entity was known for killing the saints???

7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The angel knows...what does he reveal???

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

What is the beast or rather who is going into perdition??? (same thing really)... Who are those whose names are not written in the Book of Life???

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The mind that hath WISDOM... What is the city that sits on 7 hills? And what woman sits there???

Plenty of questions and I have seen a myriad of answers... let's all take a look shall we???


YEHOVAH BE PRAISED...

Hey!

Is this the same Stizzle from BP?

[Cepha]

Nov 5, 2008 16:49:13 GMT -5 @Stizzle said:

Apr 10, 2008 13:07:28 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Why aren't you allowed to study The Church Fathers?

If God trusted them to reveal The Word of God to the world (The Holy Bible), why can't you trust them or why are you not allowed to trust them or even study them?

The Catholic Church is the Mother of Harlots in Revelation 17! It's the only church in history that fits all of these prophecies. The Pope has the spirit of the Anti-Christ in him and I'll prove it if needed!

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Who wears these particular colours and precious stones???

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

There are three cities referred to as Babylon in The BOOK; the actual city and 2 others... what are the other cities??? and what are the abominations?

6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

What is synonymous with a "woman" in the NT??? And what entity was known for killing the saints???

7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The angel knows...what does he reveal???

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

What is the beast or rather who is going into perdition??? (same thing really)... Who are those whose names are not written in the Book of Life???

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The mind that hath WISDOM... What is the city that sits on 7 hills? And what woman sits there???

Plenty of questions and I have seen a myriad of answers... let's all take a look shall we???


YEHOVAH BE PRAISED...

By the way, the "whore" here is the religious leaders of Jeruselum who were in bed with Nero (the beast who's name is literally 666).

[teresahrc]

What is synonymous with a "woman" in the NT??? And what entity was known for killing the saints???

Stizzle, "woman" is also synonymous with the Church.

Who kills the saints? Satan and anti-christs, not the Catholic Church.

you are very confused, but if you want a debate, you came to the right place.

[Cepha]

Nov 6, 2008 13:08:16 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

What is synonymous with a "woman" in the NT??? And what entity was known for killing the saints???

Stizzle, "woman" is also synonymous with the Church.

Who kills the saints? Satan and anti-christs, not the Catholic Church.

you are very confused, but if you want a debate, you came to the right place.

And...

The "Saints" spoken of there were the first Christians that were being persecuted by The Roman Empire.



I hope he does engage you T.

[watchman]

Apr 10, 2008 21:23:21 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 10, 2008 20:48:10 GMT -5 emily445455 said:

We're allowed to study whatever we want...at least I'm allowed to.

Do you want to learn about The Church Fathers?

And doesn't your church teach that only the Bible is to be used to study and "not" other sources like historical Christian documents?

I myself read the writings of Polycarp, Ireanius, Justin Martyr and the such, as well as the Nicean creed and others creeds, but I do not elevate them in status to the inerancy of scripture.

[Cepha]

Jan 1, 2009 13:29:17 GMT -5 watchman said:

Apr 10, 2008 21:23:21 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Do you want to learn about The Church Fathers?

And doesn't your church teach that only the Bible is to be used to study and "not" other sources like historical Christian documents?

I myself read the writings of Polycarp, Ireanius, Justin Martyr and the such, as well as the Nicean creed and others creeds, but I do not elevate them in status to the inerancy of scripture.

That is a reasonable way of looking at things.
I agree with you on that.
However, it was the Church Fathers who revealed the Doctrines almost all Christians hold as "truth" today (Salvation, Justification, Baptism, The Holy Trinity, etc...).

That's why we tend to take other things they say with a great deal of consideration because if they were right on those things they defined, what else could they reveal to us?

I'm definitely not saying that they were inerrant and that they didn't have conflicting beliefs, but let us remember that they were like The Founding Fathers of The U.S. in that while they weren't perfect in their initial drafts of laws (take for example, slavery and women's rights), they did lay down the foundation for how we define America.

While we have the benefits of hindsight and 2,000 years of history to reflect upon, they were the ones who were just trying to figure things out ("is" Jesus divine? what must one do to be saved? etc...).

[teresahrc]

That's why we tend to take other things they say with a great deal of consideration because if they were right on those things they defined, what else could they reveal to us?

I aggree. And also, a careful study of the Church fathers can help us put scripture into context. How did the early Christians live? How did they interpret Jesus' teachings?
An important verse to consider is this:

14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
(2 Peter 3)

So Scripture itself says that some of its teachings are "hard to understand". The question is- who do you trust more to interpret those "hard to understand" scriptures? Yourself, your Pastor, a group that's been around for a couple hundred years, or the solid and firm foundation of those who were the closest to those were the Apostle's of the Lord-- those who were ordained by the Apostles to preserve "sound doctrine" entrusted to them by the Lord?

peace
teresa