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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 15:27:19 GMT -5
The Papists and their Mary worship are of Satan their father. As a Christian I must reprove their unfruitful works of darkness which I think will get me banned in short order.  No worries, I won't take it personally. ;D Thus saith the Lord: "Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." "Jeremiah 50:38 A drought is upon her waters; and they shall be dried up: for it is the land of graven images, and they are mad upon their idols." As the children of Israel provoked the Lord in the days of Jeremiah the prophet so also do ye. Ye bow down before idols of gold, silver, wood and stone. Ye yet pray unto the "queen of heaven", and as it is written: "Isaiah 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:" But ye say: "we worship no idols" And again "the Lord is our God". Is the Lord your God? Are ye not altogether worshipers of idols? Hath not the Lord spoken? Hath not he who pondereth the heart considered it? Thus saith the Lord: "Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." "Jeremiah 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:" "Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." "Deuteronomy 5:8-9 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me," Yet ye have transgressed the commandment of the Lord and gone a whoring after images made with hands and after the imaginations of your own hearts. Truly it is written: "Isaiah 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:" Yet ye do not consider, and ye will not hearken to the word of the Lord as it is written: "Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Hath not the Lord seen this? Will not he recompence you according to your follies and judge you according to your sins? Will ye indeed bow unto images and pray unto her who said unto you: " Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."? Are not your ways unequal and your thoughts perverse? Said he not: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Will ye yet reject this testimony unto your own condemnation? Will ye yet go through another? Yea, truly ye shall know and understand your follies for it is written: "Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." And again it is written: "Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." "Deuteronomy 28:34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see." |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 15:42:19 GMT -5
Welcome aboard! ;D
I'm sure we'll have a great time together! 
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 15:45:49 GMT -5
Tell you what...why don't you break it down to one point at a time.
You're going to give me a wonderful opportunity to be able to defend our faith without my having to impose it upon anybody.
Pick a topic and let's roll with it.
PS Ban you? Are you kidding? I love you!
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 16:29:10 GMT -5
Ok. ;D Since you don't want to ban me just yet start with praying to Mary, bowing before statues, etc.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 16:31:20 GMT -5
Cool...
Show me where in The Bible it is prohibited to pray to Mary or to The Saints.
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 16:36:23 GMT -5
How about you start off with the reason and justification for "praying" to the dead and we will go from there.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 16:39:40 GMT -5
How about you start off with the reason and justification for "praying" to the dead and we will go from there. Come on now, you were the one that said "... start with praying to Mary,..." I agreed and asked you for your proof that it's forbidden in Scripture. Let's keep it on one track instead of bobbing and weaving. OK? Let's go from where we both started. ;D |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 17:05:00 GMT -5
"1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?" "2 Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates." "1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." "2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge." "Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." "Acts 16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them." What do these verses have in common? In each case God was the one prayed to. The OT and the NT are filled with examples of prayers to God but never the "saints". "John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." This verse shows that even the disciples did not even pray in Jesus's name untill directed to do so. By recieving prayers Jesus made himself equal with God. There is no indication to pray to anyone but God in scripture. "Jeremiah 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:" Jesus said: "Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." "Matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." If all power is the Lords why pray to anyone else? We are directed in scripture to pray to Jesus and the father. If you believe that we should pray to Mary or something else the scriptural burden of proof is on you. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 17:52:09 GMT -5
They also have something else all in common... Not one of those quotes state that Mary cannot be prayed to. Not one. Maybe I didn't word my request clearly and correctly. Let me re-state it: "Show me where in The Bible it is prohibited to pray to Mary or to The Saints." Oh, look at that...I did state it clearly and correctly after all! ;D "John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." This verse shows that even the disciples did not even pray in Jesus's name untill directed to do so. By recieving prayers Jesus made himself equal with God. There is no indication to pray to anyone but God in scripture. Ok, but does that state that Mary and The Saints "can't" be prayed to? While you're at it, find me in The Holy Bible where it states that we can't use computers to discuss scripture. Also, where in The Bible is the word "bible". ;D If all power is the Lords why pray to anyone else? Great question. It pleases when we intercede on each other's behalves. Where are we directed to "not" pray to anybody else? Negatory...the burden of proof is on the prosecution (the accuser). ;D Oh, and I don't believe that one "should" pray to Mary. I don't think I ever said that or inferred that. Prayer to Mary and The Saints (as Christians have been doing for thousands of years) is strictly voluntary. I would never impose that belief upon anybody. Just as I don't expect anybody to impose their personal beliefs upon me.  Still waiting for a quote where it says that we cannot pray to Mary or The Saints.  |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 18:12:22 GMT -5
"Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Look up the meaning of the greek words for "worship" and "praying" if you like, praying is definitely worship.  I don't get your meaning. The word scripture is used, and the two are interchangeable. "Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." That is the biblical rule. If it can't be justified by scripture it can't be justified period. By your rules how could you prove we were not to pray to the energizer bunny. I am assuming you would have a problem with that.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 19:04:17 GMT -5
pray
–verb
1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.
[Origin: 1250–1300; ME preien < OF preier ≪ L precārī to beg, pray, deriv. of prex (s. prec-) prayer; akin to OE fricgan, D vragen, G fragen, Goth fraihnan to ask]
Firstly, Jesus spoke in Aramaic. 2ndly, the word "pray" is derived from Latin (not Greek). Lastly, it didn't exist until the 13th century so it couldn't be used in The Holy Bible.
Pray does not mean worship. Worship means worship. To pray is an act. Christians have practiced 4 types of prayer since the beginning of Christianity: Worship (to God only), Petition (to anybody), Meditative & Contemplative.
Of course, instead of telling me to look up the word in Greek, you could've just simply posted the definition as I have and in that definition, out of the 8 entries, 2 refer to God or to objects of worship. Because Mary is "not" a deity, they don't appy to her. That leaves the other 6 entries that can be applied to her.
Now, having cleared that up, show me where in The Holy Bible it prohibits prayer to The Saints.
Bible means collection of books.
Scripture means "a" book.
A bible is a collection of scriptures.
The word "bible" is no where in The bible.
When that was stated, there was no bible in existance so it couldn't apply to The Bible and can't be a biblical rule.
2ndly, it is refering to "oral" teaching, not written teaching. You yourself are adding to that scripture because scripture is never mentioned in that quote. In fact, the exact words are "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you". This was "said", not written.
;D The Energizer Bunny isn't in heaven praying for us like the Saints are.
Now, where in The Bible does it prohibit us from prohibiting us praying to each other for intercession?
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 19:34:42 GMT -5
Regardless of what he spoke in(and it is debatable) the NT was originally written in Greek. I was speaking of the greek word which is translated "pray" in the bible. "proseuvcomai proseuchomai, pros-yoo'-khom-ahee; to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship:--pray (X earnestly, for), make prayer." I agree with that. Your point though? "2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" If the bible is scripture then it is a bible rule. Since you seem to be hung up on the term "bible" let me say that I am speaking of any of the sixty six books contained in it no matter if the whole was completed on earth at a given time or not. Any "rule" found in any of the books of the bible is a bible rule. Wrong. It was said orally AND written. If it wasn't written we wouldn't have it. Jesus himself said: "Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." That is found here: "Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." Same type of quote. He said "it is written" when it was originally a oral command too. Prove that he isn't if I may use your logic.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 19:52:30 GMT -5
Actually not Greek, but Koine and Aramaic. I mean, if we want to get original about "what" was said, then by all means, let's be specific. Point being that to pray to The Saints isn't worship. It says all "scripture", but not all the books that would be included in The Bible were written up until that point. So this is talking about all scripture up until that point that had been approved by The Church. Being that there were over a hundred "Gospels" floaing around, they had to discern through the guidance of The Holy Spirit exactly "what" was to be considered scripture. That process would take almost 400 years and be completed by The Church @ Nicea when the Canon was revealed to The Church by God. Well, that's not the Bible...that is a "version" of the original Bible where books were removed to promote a new religion and it didn't exist until the 16th Century. I can't discuss from that version because I prefer to stick to the original...The Holy Bible. So then, are the Apostles lieing when they literally state that they "taught" traditions? Just in Mark alone: Mark 13:31 - heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus' Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally. Mark 3:14; 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn't He have said a word about it? Jesus was referring to the Septugaint (a book which you obviously reject because you choose to accept the canon of The Pharisees which was canonized in 90 AD at the Council of Jamnia...that's how you got your 66 books while the universal Christian Bible maintains the same 73 books because we use the same OT that Jesus used). The New Testament didn't exist when He said this. He was the living NT. So, He couldn't refer to the NT and say "it is written". Because Jesus never mentioned the NT (and it wouldn't exist until 400 years later when The Church canonized the Christian Bible), it can't be counted with this reference. It is automatically exluded because Jesus never speaks of any "future" written work. Prove that he isn't if I may use your logic. [/quote] Sure, here is proof that he was denied entry into the Ark, therefore, his seed did "not" reproduce and he died because he couldn't be saved! ;D  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 19:53:37 GMT -5
Could we revisit the original topic?
Could you show me where it is prohibited to pray to The Saints?
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 20:23:46 GMT -5
What are you up to? You cut and pasted it to say something I didn't say. this is what I said: How do you get: "Point being that to pray to The Saints isn't worship." out of that? Not true, but that is a different topic and I don't feel like argueing it right now. "Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." law: novmoß nomos, nom'-os; from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law. The fact that he mentions the jot and the tittle show that he is speaking of it in a written form. I assume this is what you are speaking of: "2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." traditions: paravdosiß paradosis, par-ad'-os-is; transmission, i.e. (concretely) a precept; specially, the Jewish traditionary law:--ordinance, tradition. "Matthew 15:1-6 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." So, what we see is that tradition does not have to be wrong, BUT if it goes against scripture it is indeed wrong. Many, many, catholic traditions go against scripture. Not true, everyone knows he always keeps going. He couldn't have died. Maybe he floated on the drum. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 20:32:45 GMT -5
Go back and look at the thread there...you asked for my point, I copied what was there without a "quote" around it leading me to believe it was your words (as mine were in quote boxes). If there is a mistake, then it was yours for not quoting my words. I didn't know what those mumbled up words meant, but since you supposedly wrote them back to me, I included them in my response (assuming you'd know what they meant). I'm trying to stay on the topic about praying to Saints. I'm trying to stay on the topic about praying to Saints. "Mosaic" Law. Any laws that came "after" Jesus (for example laws on baptism replacing circumsision, etc...) weren't written "yet" while He was on earth. We're trying to get throug one right now...so let's (as I suggested initially) stick to praying to Saints and take one at a time after that instead of jumping past the debate ahead of the topic at hand. Chapter & Verse Please! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 20:49:50 GMT -5
I did put it in quote boxes in my post. I just checked to make sure. So I still don't get it... but whatever... We have bigger fish to fry...  Well, the "law" there is inclusive enough to mean the NT too. Even if it doesn't the verse we were speaking of was OT anyway. "Job 5:1 Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?" "Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight." That is Gods view. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 21:55:14 GMT -5
Wow...you're going to quote a man that was wrong about Job's suffering(Job 15:15)? I won't touch that one...but, that verse taken in it's full context is: Job 15: 11 Are the consolations of God too small for thee, Even the word that is gentle toward thee? 12 Why doth thy heart carry thee away? And why do thine eyes flash, 13 That against God thou turnest thy spirit, And lettest words go out of thy mouth? 14 What is man, that he should be clean? And he that is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? 15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his holy ones; Yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight: 16 How much less one that is abominable and corrupt, A man that drinketh iniquity like water! In the end...Eliphaz was wrong about what he said to Job. Not a very good verse to quote out of context. Now...show me where The Holy Bible prohibits our praying to The Saints?  [/quote][/quote] |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 4, 2008 22:10:04 GMT -5
No he wasn't wrong at all. If you look at the rest of what he said it is spot on. If you look at what God said it was much the same thing. Where he was wrong was in trusting in his own wisdom and failing to give God the glory.
"Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."
After God spoke Job gave God the glory and his three friends just puffed up. That was their sin.
I just did. I guess you just don't like it. I gave many scriptural indications and those last few verses addressed it directly. Frankly this "debate" is won unless you have something biblical to show in favour of praying to saints. ;D
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 23:18:12 GMT -5
I guess you must have missed the part where God was furious with Eliphaz and rebuked him and told him that he was wrong about what he said to Job... Job 42: 7 And it was so, that, after Jehovah had spoken these words unto Job, Jehovah said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends; for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 8 Now therefore, take unto you seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt-offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you; for him will I accept, that I deal not with you after your folly; for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. Kind of contradicted yourself when you said that they weren't wrong in what they said to Job. I (and God) were right and Eliphaz was wrong to speak wrong of God, but that's not the topic here is it? The topic is "Where in the Bible does it forbid us from praying to Saints?" No...you have not shown where God or the Bible prohibit our praying to Saints. No where in The Bible is it prohibited. You put up a verse of Eliphaz mocking God (for which God rebuked him and corrected him later). "indications?" What do you mean by indications? Do you mean that they "hinted" at your belief that it is wrong to pray to Saints? I could pull verses that would "indicate" that Satan told the truth and use that to support a belief in Satan. Come on...you have to do way better than just "hinting" at the "possibility" that your belief (which doesn't exist in Scripture) is true. You need a clear passage that literally states it as "fact". And what last few verses addressed prohibiting the praying to Saints directly? Nothing was mentioned about praying to Saints being prohibited. Of course I have proof, but you said the debate is won. I'm still waiting for you to show the passage in scripture that forbids praying to Saints. You haven't. It has to say "praying to Saints is forbidden"...while it doesn't have to be in that order of words, it has to literally express that God forbids praying to Saints for intercessions. It's easy. Either you can, or you can't. You've had all night to Google, to hit up your buddies and have them Googling, to go to your anti-Catholic websites for proof. If it's in the Bible, you should've had it by now. I know it's "not" in The Bible, that's why I keep pushing you to look for that passage. In reality, that belief never existed in Christianity until well into the 16th Century. I'm dieing for us to move beyond Scripture and take it to the next level and see what The Church Fathers (those to whom The Apostles entrusted their teachings to) had to say about it, but one step at a time. I'll give you one more shot.  |
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No worries, I won't take it personally. ;D
I don't get your meaning. The word scripture is used, and the two are interchangeable.
