jacee
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by jacee on Apr 5, 2008 15:08:09 GMT -5
1Sa 28:5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
1Sa 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
1Sa 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
1Sa 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1Sa 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
1Sa 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
1Sa 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
1Sa 28:17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
He said....He changes not. It is witchcraft to seek to speak to any heavenly being other God in the name of Jesus. He is the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 5, 2008 18:53:01 GMT -5
The Papists and their Mary worship are of Satan their father. First, no Catholic who is under communion with the Pope worships Mary. That's just foolish. Second, I guess that those who *honor* Mary yet are not in communion with the Pope are also sons of satan? That's ridiculous and self-contradictory, because this includes MANY Protestant denominations such as Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and even Eastern Orthodoxy. All of these (and many unmentioned ones) are not "papists" because they reject the Papacy. It seems to me that what you're stuck with is strong Protestant prejudice, because you seem to attack only those under communion with the Pope, and not all those who honor Mary. In fact, it should be you the one that's ashamed for dishonoring Mary... |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 8:03:35 GMT -5
That statement makes The Word of God a hypocrite:
God sent angels to address Mary and other humans.
The Prophets were addressed by angels and some even had physcial encounters with them.
God sent Saints like Moses and Elijah to speak to Jesus Himself.
No where in the Bible does it say that it is witchcraft to converse with heavenly beings (Angels and Saints)...
...unless, you're calling God's work in sending Angels and Saints to talk to us witchcraft?
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jacee
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by jacee on Apr 6, 2008 9:14:08 GMT -5
Whoever God sends to speak to people is not the same thing. We are to pray only to God. Jesus is our intercessor before the throne. It is His blood on the mercy seat granting us access to Father, not Marys.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 9:44:58 GMT -5
Whoever God sends to speak to people is not the same thing. We are to pray only to God. Jesus is our intercessor before the throne. It is His blood on the mercy seat granting us access to Father, not Marys. Show me where in The Bible it is forbidden to pray to The Saints? Jesus is the one "Mediator", but we are told that we can all intercede on each others behalves in scripture. Not only that, it actually pleases God when we intercede on each other's behalves. 1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;
2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, And it was Mary's blood that spilled from Jesus' body. Remember, Jesus had no earthly biological Father to contribute it's DNA or material make-up, so Jesus was 100% physically Mary...not a combination of Mary and another human being. Jesus was Holy in Spirit (because of The Holy Spirit) and fully human because of Mary. That is, unless you can prove that there was some form of physical matter being contributed to His formation? Until you can, it still stands...all of Jesus bone, flesh and blood came from only one human being. Mary. Hailed by an Angel of The Lord. The Blessed among women. The Highly Favoured of God. The one God has done great things "in". The one who's soul amplifies, augments, blesses, boosts, builds up, dignifies, enhances, exalts, expands, extends, glorifies, heightens, hikes up, increases, inflates, intensates, intensifies and multiplies The Lord (that is, according to scripture). |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 9:49:06 GMT -5
Where does it say that in The Bible?  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 10:59:26 GMT -5
VS
Which of this "buffet" will you settle on?
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 6, 2008 18:54:26 GMT -5
Just a note, I have done no googling, nor have I asked anyone else for "help". Scripture speaks just fine by itself.  Ok, I modify the statement to include anyone that makes Mary more than she was, which is simply a Godly woman whom God used to fulfill his will. To make her more than that is wrong. Mary said: "Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." Only sinners need a saviour... A sinners blood would not atone for the sins of the world as the blood of Christ did. It is written: "Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." It is written: "1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" "Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." When someone prays to mary they are either worshiping her(you admitted prayer to God is worship) or they are trying to use her as a "mediator". That is really the only two choices. The prayers I have heard catholics make sound very worshipful.... Context... Is paul writing to the living or to the dead?  I will help you, he is writing to the living. ;D He is telling the living to pray for others. That is a long way from saying that we should pray to the dead to "help" us with God especially since we are told to pray directly to the father in scripture. Even Jesus said: "John 16:26-27 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God." Now if even Jesus says he does not need to "pray the Father" for the true believer why would a Christian need to pray to a Godly but dead woman requesting that she might pray for us? It is confusion.... |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 19:57:50 GMT -5
I am the Google King. It's so much easier to find a scripture online than to pick up a book. Quicker too. The Internet has done for theological exchange what the invention of the printing press has done for spreading The Gospel.
Wow...how can anybody be "more" than being chosen by God?
Heck, if she's good enough for Him, she's super great to me. ;D
I've heard that, yet nobody's ever provided a scripture to say that one has to be a sinner to be saved. How do you know that she wasn't referring to The Immaculate Conception when she said she was saved?
How do you know that she didn't mean "saved from original sin"?
Remember, she referred to herself as saved by God "before" Jesus was born. Since Jesus hadn't made the sacrifice to remove original sin from anybody at that point, she had to be free from original sin at that moment in order to say that.
Prayer to God is worship.
Prayer to Mary is a request for intercession (which pleases God).
When you ask a pastor or family member to pray for you, you are praying to them. Prayer literally means "to request". That's all. There's no supernatural property attributed to it unless you are praying to God.
You should read my "Hail Mary: Anatomy of a prayer" thread. There, I outline how the prayer is literally scriptural.
I agree with you that there are some Catholics who definately (in my opinion) cross the line, but those are Catholics who don't know the faith well. Just because they pray to Mary, that doesn't make them knowledgeable Catholics.
The Mexican Idians who are converts to Christianity tend to take it a bit to far, but that's because they were still praying to Pagan gods just 500 years ago.
It's like when Paul converted the Pagans in The NT. It took them a while to transfer from paganism to Christianity.
I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that worshipping Mary (or anybody else dead or alive) is prohibited by The Catholic Church.
It is literally in The Catechism of The Catholic Church (our rules and regulations).
Excellent point! Now, that brings up the question of whether or not the Saints (including Mary) are dead or alive. Right? If they are dead, then they are "not" in Heaven and God is "not" their God. Right? For God is the God of the living, not the dead.
If you believe that the Saints are alive in Heaven (we believe more alive than us who are restricted to our rotting bodies of flesh with impurities), then asking them to pray for us is "not" outside of the line of Christianity especially since Christians have always believed in the communion (common union) of the Saints since the beginning of The Church 1800 years ago (Apostles Creed).
Again, that depends on what theology you practice...Apostolic theology or Protestant theology.
Catholics practice Apostolic theology (as has Christianity since the beginning of Christianity). Remember, the belief that Mary is dead and "not" alive was invented in the 16th Century. Until then, it didn't exist. It's a man-made theory which no Christian before those in Europe believed in up until it was introduced into that particular religion.
With all due respect, Protestant Christians are entitled to believe and practice however they want to and I respect their right to do that. That's between them and God.
But the overwhelming majority of Christianity continues to practice the traditions of our theological forefathers that existed "before" they even created The Bible.
The same persons who created The Holy Bible practiced these Christian traditions. Still do.
It is for those who attempt to believe without the guidance of The Church that is led by The Holy Spirit.l
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 6, 2008 22:00:47 GMT -5
"Matthew 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." "Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." So did David. "Psalm 9:14 That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation." "2 Samuel 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence." They were saved in the OT the same way a Christian is saved in the NT. By grace through faith in Christ alone. Only difference was they looked forward to the cross and today the Christian looks back to the cross. It is written: "Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." "1 Peter 1:18- 20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," I am chosen by God too. ;D "John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." "Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" "1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" Sort of like this?  "1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;" Wrong. Jesus said: "Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" I the context of what you are quoting he calls them dead. He says they will live again, but the body is dead as it can be. Now the spirit is alive, but that is a different issue. You can have a dead spirit and a live body or a dead body and a live spirit, or both. It is written: "1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." And again: "1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Yes, they are indeed dead for now. "Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." "Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" "Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 22:19:05 GMT -5
Does this mean that you're "not" going to answer my question as to what was Mary's state of mind when she called God her Saviour before Jesus died? He never says he's saved from original sin. He only says he's saved from violence. But Mary calls God her Saviour when it is revealed to her that Jesus would come to die for all man...therefore, she had the revelation of salvation from original sin before she said this. What you're saying is that they were saved by believing in something that never happened at that time? Scripture in the OT where they said this please: Funny, I don't see you being mentioned there at all. I see all those scriptures speaking in a present tense. That is, unless you can find me a scripture that says you specifically were chosen like it says that Mary was chosen. Me wrong? Re-read what you just wrote. God says that supposedly "dead" men are living. He doesn't say they will live again. Where is that? He calls them alive. Was Jesus talking to the "dead" when He was transfigered with Moses and Elijah too? It is written: "1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." And again: "1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Yes, they are indeed dead for now. [/quote] Jesus to The Apostles (not to the Protestants): Luke 10:1-12 "Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 22:19:53 GMT -5
Where in The Bible does it state that it is forbidden to pray to The Saints?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 22:22:54 GMT -5
By the way, I really appreciate that you actually use scripture in your responses. Thanks.
;D
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 7, 2008 7:55:53 GMT -5
Mary was indeed in need for a Savior, but she was savd *before*, such as God preventing her from inheriting Original Sin. There is nothing unbiblical or against the Bible about this.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 9:14:05 GMT -5
Because we are all formed in the womb by God (much scriptural support for this fact), God could form us however He wants to.
The only thing that is sinful is the material (not God's creation of us). All He has to do is to remove original sin from the biological matter He chooses to use and the creature He brings forth will be formed sinless (like He did when He made Jesus Christ).
Nothing is impossible for God. Even if we refuse to believe it. God created Mary sinless so that her sin would "not" be passed unto Jesus when He formed Jesus in Mary's womb.
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 7, 2008 20:45:15 GMT -5
If God simply "made" Mary sinless the Cross would have been pointless. Why not just do that for everyone? Jesus died to pay the price for sin. He had to shed his perfect blood to pay sins price. It is written: "Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" "Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" "1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." If you say Mary was sinless you make her god and that is blasphemy. It is written: "Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest." And again: "Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." Re-read it yourself. He says " And as touching the dead, that they rise:" For further NT support: "Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." "1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(ie. dead) in Jesus will God bring with him." How about a NT passage. Acts 2:25 -32 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. "Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." I am saved by the blood of Christ so I am specifically chosen according to the word of God. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 0:25:47 GMT -5
Why not do it for everyone? That would require removing will from us. Also, He didn't keep Mary pure for Mary's sake. He did it to protect Jesus from any sin being transferred to Him. Actually, Jesus shed Mary's blood (remember, he had no biological father so His blood wasn't the combination of two types of blood, but was all 100% Mary). Too late. We already beat that verse up elsewhere here. If all have sinned, that would make Jesus a sinner too since He is one of the all (at least His Man side). No. You make her a god in your mind if she is sinless. No Christian has ever called Mary a god. Only Protestant Christians obsess with referring to statements where she is referred to as a god. How about a NT passage. That quote you read is referring to the children of those he was talking to. Can you trace your bloodline back to the characters there genetically? Or are you just "generalizing" when you include yourself in the bunch? |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 8, 2008 20:08:19 GMT -5
Consider the logic of what your saying... If Mary had to be sinless so it wouldn't be "transferred" to Jesus, HER parents would also BOTH have to be sinless to keep HER from being "tainted". The problems only get worse from there... Even according to your erroneous doctrine you must ultimately believe that a sinless person was born to a sinner... Why add all the unbiblical extra steps? Wrong. Here is the verse again: "Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Now lets look at another passage. "1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet . But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him ." Therefore by comparing scripture with scripture, it is also manifest that when he says " For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" God is excepted. God did not sin and come short of his own glory, that is a foolish argument. God is holy. Again a foolish argument. God was his father and he wasn't a genetic"copy" of mary. If he was he wouldn't have been a "he" now would he?  Who do you think "even as many as the Lord our God shall call." is speaking of? I will tell you. It is speaking of me, among others. ;D It is written: "Romans 9:23-26 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 8, 2008 20:22:12 GMT -5
stelzner...what religion are you?
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 8, 2008 20:26:19 GMT -5
I am a Christian, believer in God, and thus a believer of the bible. For the purpose of this discussion is more info necessary? |
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I will help you, he is writing to the living. ;D He is telling the living to pray for others. That is a long way from saying that we should pray to the dead to "help" us with God especially since we are told to pray directly to the father in scripture. Even Jesus said:
