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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 20:35:23 GMT -5
I am a Christian, believer in God, and thus a believer of the bible. For the purpose of this discussion is more info necessary?   |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 8, 2008 20:45:55 GMT -5
John 9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
Further, as I have said, if you wish to teach a doctrine YOU must be able to prove it by scripture before a Christian is to accept it.
It is written:
"Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
And again:
"1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
"Jeremiah 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"
"Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
"Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 21:09:28 GMT -5
If I had a nickel for everytime that I heard that one.  Mary wasn't sinless because her parents would have to be sinless...God "formed" her sinless. God can form a sinless creature out of sinful flesh, but God Himself cannot be formed form sinful flesh (that is, Jesus Christ who is God). God wouldn't start with crap to form perfection. He formed Mary sinless. Mary's parents didn't form her, God did. Saint Ann's and Saint Joaquim's flesh were sinful. Right? Mary didn't have to be perfect...only Jesus had to be perfect. Mary just had to be immaculately conceived so that when she was born, she wouldn't be born "into" sin. It's not our being formed that makes us sinners. It's our being "born" that makes us sinners (like you Protestants believe that babies that are still born are not born into sin and thus are guaranteed heaven without having to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior). First of all, the difference between Jesus and Mary is that Mary was formed in the womb from two biological parents while Jesus was only formed in the womb from one biological parent. Mary was formed in the womb sinless. How? Easy, God forms us all in our mother's wombs. Why not form us sinless? Because we have to pay for original sin. Why not Mary? Because Mary was being used for something that no other human being would ever do. Mary was being used to bring The Eternal Life of Mankind (Jesus) through her womb. Question (that no Protestant dares answer): If you could send your kid to school in a dirty corroded unreliable school bus or a spanking brand new school bus of the highest quality guarenteed to be absolutely hygenically perfect, which would you send your child to school in? What would God send Jesus to earth "in"? Remember, the fruit is made of the same thing that the tree that produced it is made of and not rotten tree can produce a good fruit and of "whom" is Jesus the fruit of (Hint: Elisabeth calls her the fruit of?)? Question: Do you believe that God would form Jesus out of sinful flesh? Was Jesus "not" born a man? Was He "not one of those "all" if "all" is referring to every single living human being? "That" didn't happen until "after" He made the sacrifice. It wasn't Jesus' birth that brought our salvation, but His death. No...not according to you. God may be excepted, but Jesus is both God "and" Man at the same time (that is, unless you're not a Christian because this is a tenat of The Christian Faith that God became "Man" in Jesus Christ who is AKA The Son of Man). The foolish argument is to try to exclude Jesus from being a man. Because if you include Jesus in being a Man, then that makes Him one of the "all" you are trying to be a Bible Literalist about. (Of course, this taking the Bible Literally only happens when it is convenient for you for theologically...I notice you don't take The Word of God literally when Jesus talks about "Catholic" rituals like "This is my body" which He says over and over and over and never said it in conjunction with a prable, but literally said it is His body...even when He was asked if it was symbollic...He corrected them and said no...it is literal...off topic, but used to prove a point of your failure to intellectually prostrate yourself to The Word.) This exchange is starting to go into The Twilight Zone. Ok, so now Jesus is made up of "God's Flesh" and "not" Mary's flesh? Is that what you just said? The Bible literally says that Jesus is the fruit of Mary's womb, not of God's. But hey, I'll give you a chance at proving that statement with scritpure that "God was his father and he wasn't a genetic"copy" of mary." (I'm sure you meant to say that "Jesus was His Father" there). It is written: "Blessed art thou and blessed is The Fruit of your womb!" |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 21:17:36 GMT -5
That doesn't say that it is prohibited to pray "to" anybody besides God. Hail Mary: An anatomy of prayer. It states that God is pleased when we intercede on each other's behalf. Here's the link with all the scripture needed. Oh, and who are The Saints in Heaven praying for? Not "to" God. They can talk to God directly. Not for themselves. They are in Heaven. So, they are praying "for" someone. Who needs prayer? Rev 5:8/8:3 That doesn't say that it is prohibited to pray "to" anybody besides God. That doesn't say that it is prohibited to pray "to" anybody besides God. That doesn't say that it is prohibited to pray "to" anybody besides God. That doesn't say that it is prohibited to pray "to" anybody besides God. That doesn't say that it is prohibited to pray "to" anybody besides God. You know something? For a Bible Literalist, you sure have a problem with finding one scripture that prohibits us praying to anyone other than God. You haven't even posted a verse that mentions prayer once.  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 8, 2008 21:36:17 GMT -5
I am a Christian, believer in God, and thus a believer of the bible. For the purpose of this discussion is more info necessary? Actually, i was just wondering, but if it is that hard of a question to answer, then whatever. LOL |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 8, 2008 21:37:38 GMT -5
Stelz... What is the name of the Church you attend? This should be an easier question to answer.
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 8, 2008 22:15:47 GMT -5
"Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
"Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
"Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
"Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."
"John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
"Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
"Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
"Romans 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
"Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
"John 10:30 I and my Father are one."
"John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father?"
"Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
"Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
"John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
"Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
"Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."
"Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."
He was fully God and fully man. NOT all of Mary.
I don't know why you would hear more seeing your heart is fully set to reject the truth... You are just multiplying iniquities... Never the less....
"Psalm 73:25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee."
But you will not hear...
As it is written:
"John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 22:16:11 GMT -5
Stelz... What is the name of the Church you attend? This should be an easier question to answer. I'll bet you a zillion dollars it's a "non-denominational" church. |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 8, 2008 22:22:19 GMT -5
Hahhh you lose big time.... I guess you will be in debt the rest of your life.  "Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 22:49:59 GMT -5
This is going to be fun! Psalm 51:5! ;D Hello? Reference to Job 14;4! LOL! And you know what that says? 4 "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!" Just like Jesus says, nothing clean can come out of the unclean! Do you cosider Jesus clean? Or unclean? If He is clean, what does that make she from which He came out of according to the scripture and to Jesus' own words? Do you know what else it refers to? Job 15:14 "What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? See that? "Born"? And as for David being conceived in sin? This was King David's mother, Nitzevet bat Adel, who felt the intensity of her youngest child's pain and rejection as her own. The sin he is talking about is his rejection by his own brothers! King David isn't talking about his own mother, nor his creation! But about how he was treated unjustly and of "his" own personal sins (not that God made him a sinner!). And guess what King David's mother is referred to in scripture? She is compared to Mary! She is called the " handmaid of God"! Exactly what Mary's calls herself! Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. David's Mother says... Psalm 86:16 "Turn to me, and be gracious to me; Oh grant Your strength to Your servant, And save the son of Your handmaid." Psalm 116:16 O LORD, truly I am thy servant; I am thy servant, and the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds. (PS...do you realize that she is interceding on behalf of her son?) Poor froggy. This has so much Marian Theology, I don't know where to begin! Thanks for introducing me to it! The only difference? Mary never confessed any sins to God nor did she ever apologize for having sinned (because she never did). In fact, she thanks God for having done great things in her...calling God (not Jesus) her Saviour. On top of that, Only one individual throughout David's youth was pained by his unjustified plight and felt a deep, unconditional bond of love for the child whom she alone knew was undoubtedly pure. Torn and anguished by David's unwarranted degradation (just as Jesus suffered undue degradation), yet powerless to stop it (just was Mary was powerles), Nitzevet stood by the sidelines (just like Mary did from Jesus' birth to His death & ressurection), in solidarity with him (just like Mary did), shunned herself, as she, too, cried rivers of tears, awaiting the time when justice would be served. And ultimately, to take a fragment of a verse out of context and to present it as proof is disingenuous. Even Satan does that. Let's take the whole passage and look at it: What Psalms 51 says in context: Psalm 51 (the unedited version!)
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.Now, according to you, if God formed everybody sinful and didn't make any acceptions, then guess what? Jesus would have to ask for forgiveness too (like David does in that scripture that you quoted, but that you conveniently left out).  So you're saying that Mary wasn't human? And if He didn't get all of His biological material that formed Him from The Blessed Virgin Mary, "who" else did He get it from? Name His biological father: [ Insert answer here] Now, where in the Bible does it state that praying to anybody but God is prohibited? Anywhere? Don't post unrelated verses. Post verses that prove your unbiblical belief. (Look at that! Now I think I have to go to confession all because of you! I had too much fun doing this! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D) |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 23:02:06 GMT -5
Stelz... What is the name of the Church you attend? This should be an easier question to answer. Anti-Catholics NEVER tell you what church they belong to! LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 23:05:58 GMT -5
Hahhh you lose big time.... I guess you will be in debt the rest of your life. "Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Aha! So you admit it! You belong to a "denominational" church! Now, you can't deny it! Like a moth to a flame! LOL!  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 23:19:51 GMT -5
Stelz... What is the name of the Church you attend? This should be an easier question to answer. Anti-Catholics NEVER tell you what church they belong to! LOL! I guess I'm still right. He said I was wrong about him being a non-denominational, he supposedly corrected me, and STILL managed to avoid answering you CC! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D So I'm right...anti-Catholics "don't" tell you what church their from. |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 9, 2008 7:49:20 GMT -5
If God simply "made" Mary sinless the Cross would have been pointless. Why not just do that for everyone? Jesus died to pay the price for sin. He had to shed his perfect blood to pay sins price. So you're saying Christ's sacrifice at the Cross is limited to time? God saved the Old Testament saints from that very sacrifice, even though they pre-dated the Sacrifice. It is because of Christ's sacrifice that Mary is sinless, because Christ's sacrifice is NOT bound to time. "all have sinned".. all who? Who is "all"? Infants count? What about Jesus? He is truly human and truly God... Surely Scriptures are clear about Jesus not sinning, but the Scriptures are also clear in saying that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the Truth", it does not point to itself as our only authority, it points to the Church. Now, consider what the first Christians, the "first" Church, believed about Mary: "He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from putridity and corruption." - Hippolytus "This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." - Origen "Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." - Ephraem "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 10, 2008 16:00:04 GMT -5
I could answer that, but maybe we should deal with this first. Just a few pages ago you "claimed" that Eliphaz was WRONG and that quoting him was useless. You used that "claim" as your basis for rejecting these verses. "Job 5:1 Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?" "Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight." Now YOUR quoting him after you just told me how wrong he was? You said among other things: "Wow...you're going to quote a man that was wrong about Job's suffering(Job 15:15)? I won't touch that one..." First you were against Eliphaz and now you are for him... flip flop... flip flop... Don't talk out of both sides of your mouth. Make up your mind you wascally wabbit... ;D If you think we are to take what he says as truth say so and I will refute your misuse of those verses but your double talk isn't helping your "case" much. Davids mother didn't say that. Any reading of that passage will show that david is the one speaking. Your just making more extra biblical statements... Wrong. Do you not understand that Jesus was FULLY GOD and fully man? Where did Adam get his biological material from? Have you never read in the scriptures that Christ is the second Adam? |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 10, 2008 16:38:55 GMT -5
I agree that Christs sacrifice is not bound by time. BUT you seem to misunderstand. If Mary is saved through Christ(and she is) she is JUSTIFIED through his blood, she is not sinless. There is a BIG difference.
"Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."
Everyone counts under "the wicked" unless they are saved. If you like I can show that with scripture.
It is written:
"Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
This and other verses are proof of why infants go to heaven when they die. Not because they are perfect, but because they had no chance to reject the truth. Even in the OT law there were special sacrifices for the ignorant and for the "simple".
It is written:
"1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
This is usually what it all comes down to. Catholics tend to follow the founders of their church. However, those founders are not of God. Those "first"(not really) "Christians" you speak of were and are heretics. What they teach does not line up with the word of God.
Paul and other apostles spoke of individuals like them...
"Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."
"2 Timothy 2:17-18 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 10, 2008 20:30:00 GMT -5
Ok, the Early Church Fathers put together the Word of God, so dont you think they followed it correctly?!
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 10, 2008 20:37:14 GMT -5
So what? The Bible just fell out of the sky as a completed work?
When did the first Holy Bible appear in history?
(hint: it was 1,100 years "before" Protestantism was a mistake in Luther's pride)
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Post by Cepha on Apr 10, 2008 20:45:18 GMT -5
Oh, so when it disagrees with you, "then" you "don't" want to use his words? Were'nt you the one who was saying he was right? So if he was right, then what's the difference?
Besides, his words are supported by Jesus' words. Tell you what...take away the Eliphaz words, ok? Now...deal with the fact that Jesus said the same thing.
And answer the questions.
Stop figiting and pointing to the sky so I can turn around and you can run away...
Again:
Just like Jesus says, nothing clean can come out of the unclean!
Do you cosider Jesus clean?
Or unclean?
If He is clean, what does that make she from which He came out of according to the scripture and to Jesus' own words?
Don't "could"...just "do".
You're like Tom when the Bulldog has him by the neck...your legs are funning, but you ain't going nowhere.
You're not answering the questions! LOL!
And I don't blame you. I wouldn't answer them either and focus on "another" thread to try to take the focus off of you! LOL
Correct...it is The Word of God that calls David's mother The Handmaid of The Lord just like Mary. I mixed up my words.
So, are you going to completely ignore the questions on the Marian reference? ;D
Yes...and being fully man, he is one of the all that have been born. He is The Son of Man. Literally "a" man born of a virgin.
Unless you're saying that somewhere in the scriptures it says "all have been born sinful, except Jesus". I'm sure it says he had no sin, but what does it say about his being born without sin?
On top of all that, He literally "became" sin.
He got his from dirt.
But, since Jesus wasn't formed from dirt, and He was "born" of a virgin, then He had to get his biological material and DNA and hair and bone and flesh and blood from her.
That is, unless you can prove that Jesus got all that from dirt.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 10, 2008 20:47:45 GMT -5
No, that says "the" wicked, not that "all are wicked".
He's talking about those that are wicked before birth.
"The" wicked are born. Not "all are born wicked".
Ok then..."who" saved Jesus the Man "before" He was born?
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