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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 13:13:54 GMT -5
Both hate it when Catholics speak so glowingly and lovingly of The Virgin Mary.
They become & feel animosity, indignant, angry, wrathful, bitterness, detestation, dislike, hostility, ill will, loathing, malice, rancor and spite towards the mere mention of Mary.
Too bad...The Reformers loved Mary and they loved talking about her too.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 13:14:38 GMT -5
What do Catholics and The Reformers and Jesus have in common?
We both love Mary as Our mother.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 14:06:18 GMT -5
THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY
When Fundamentalists study the writings of the Reformers on Mary, the Mother of Jesus, they will find that the Reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 14:08:38 GMT -5
Yep...The Reformers were "Momma's Boys".
;D
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 6, 2008 14:54:50 GMT -5
I don't know about feeling all of those emotions. I don't mind ya'll loving her, I love her all like I love my other sisters...I just don't pray to her. ;D
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 17:15:46 GMT -5
That's ok. She still loves you like a daughter even though you don't accept the Biblical revelation that the woman who gave birth to Jesus brought our eternal life through her womb making her our spiritual mother.  How could God be your Father, Jesus your brother and Mary (who is Jesus' mother) "not" be your mother? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 6, 2008 17:21:06 GMT -5
Because Mary was just a vessel, a tool, used by God. By herself, she is not special. God made her special. God makes all of us special, Mary had a very, very important roll...but like the rest of us, she was just a tool used by God to get His plan done. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 17:48:26 GMT -5
Yeah. Jesus' mother "wasn't" special.
God didn't "highly favor" her?
God didn't bless her "among" women?
Do you know what that means?
"Blessed art thou AMONG women"?
That means Mary was told that she was blessed seperately from all other women.
How can someone be "just" a vessel and be "special" at the same time? That's an oxymoron; a contradiction in terms, don't you think?
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 6, 2008 20:20:48 GMT -5
Ok, she was special. But I still won't pray to her |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 21:13:40 GMT -5
Ok, she was special. But I still won't pray to her You don't have to. Christianity was never imposed. Like this quote from a great Christian movie says...(Kingdom Of Heaven): "Mohammed says choose...Jesus says decide." I decide to do what Jesus did. When Jesus was young, He went to Mary to be nurtured. So can I. Until His death, Jesus loved and honored her as a mother. So will I. I want to be "Christlike". And loving and honoring Mary is what Christ was like. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 6, 2008 21:30:58 GMT -5
Ok, she was special. But I still won't pray to her Notice what you have just said in your last posts... mary is just like another sis then... ok, she is special, but i dont pray to her. Which is it? Are you comfortable in your belief? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 6, 2008 21:33:14 GMT -5
Marcie, I recanted what I said..she was special.
Jesus did not pray to her. So why should we pray to her? Jesus only prayed to the Father.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 6, 2008 21:37:24 GMT -5
Whenever Jesus asked Mary for something,
that is a prayer.
To pray is literally to "ask for" something.
Are you saying that Jesus never asked Mary for anything?
As a child even?
He even asked her for advice when He asked her what business it was of His that there was no wine at the wedding in Cana.
He got His answer right quick when she didn't answer Him and turned to the steward and told them to do as He said.
What did Jesus do?
Did He again ask her?
Nope.
He did what He had to do to make sure that there was wine there.
All because Mary told Him.
No matter what...Mary is still Jesus' mother and even Jesus had to honor her (that is, obey her).
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 6, 2008 22:20:33 GMT -5
I think Protestants work to dang hard at opposing Mary, its so obvious!
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 8:05:35 GMT -5
Catholics believe Mary was sinnless, correct? Even though the Bible states all men to be liars?
If so...then my next point wouldn't go very far, lol.
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 7, 2008 8:27:18 GMT -5
I don't know about feeling all of those emotions. I don't mind ya'll loving her, I love her all like I love my other sisters...I just don't pray to her. ;D We don't pray to her either... That's ridiculous.  We ask her to pray for us, to intercede for us, to help us out, through Christ her Son and her Savior. But we love her like a mother, and so should you if you truly follow the Scriptures. |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 7, 2008 8:31:57 GMT -5
Because Mary was just a vessel, a tool, used by God. By herself, she is not special. God made her special. God makes all of us special, Mary had a very, very important roll...but like the rest of us, she was just a tool used by God to get His plan done. Yes, but Mary is the most special. In her Jesus Christ, God the Son!!!!, dwelt! Do you remember the Ark of the Covenant? Where God's presence dwelt? (it wasn't even God-made-man fully there, it was His presence) Do you remember how the Ark had to be umblemished, clean, pure, it could not be touched by other than the apointed priest - lest they die... And now we have Jesus, the Word made flesh, dwelling inside a woman, a woman "full of grace", a woman that is to have enmity with the serpent (see Genesis), a woman that is clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under her feet, with a crown of 12 stars... Indeed God makes us special, and we do nothing in ourselves to be made special.. We are worthless and powerless. But God does elevate us as in to die for us, and God truly elevated her to give her such high role: the highest role in human history, ever! And indeed we cannot be holy by ourselves, we need God's grace, and His alone... This is why Mary is "full of Grace" (see Luke 1) And also remember that she is our Mother, the Mother of the church, the Mother of those who follow the commandments of God, for we are her offspring (see Rev 12). Pax Christi. |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 7, 2008 8:36:40 GMT -5
Catholics believe Mary was sinnless, correct? Even though the Bible states all men to be liars? If so...then my next point wouldn't go very far, lol. So you're a woman so we can take your word... Since you're not a man, you're not a liar.. See the contradiction when using that verse so much? All men are liars.. even babies? What is so hard to grasp that God made Mary sinless... It is not that she in her own effort didn't sin... This can NEVER happen without God's grace, without God's hand. You see, everything about Mary in fact turns to God. Was she assumed? We believe she was. Did she fly up? NO! She was *assumed*, meaning, she was taken up to Heaven, by God Himself. This only proves God's might, not her own. Mary is God's lowly servant, "the handmaid of the Lord" Jesus loved her and obeyed her. The first miracle was done because of her *intercession* So you see, we don't pray *to* her, but to God/Jesus *through* her, just as the men at the party did. They went to her, she went to Jesus. It's such a nice example. It's such a nice thing to have our own Mother intercede for us, she in her sinless humanity, go to Jesus our Redeemer and God. She, a human, interceeding for us, humans, in front of God. Pax Christi. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 9:00:32 GMT -5
If all men are sinless "literally",
then that would include Jesus Christ.
By using that line to convict Mary,
you automatically convict Christ.
Plus, you have to undo all of scripture concerning her.
Besides, there is not one scripture that ever states that Mary sinned. Ever. You won't find one scripture that states that she sinned. Not one word.
So, for all you Sola Scripturists and Bible literalists,
that means, Mary sinning is "not" Biblical.
;D
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 11:47:06 GMT -5
Jesus was God, so he doesn't fall under the category of "all men".
The Bible also says nothing about me sinning...no wait, yes it does...it says all fall short...that includes me, you, Mary, every human being that lived on this planet falls short.
So I take it you believe Mary never sinned?
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