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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 7, 2008 12:27:40 GMT -5
I honestly dont know if she ever sinned? Have not seen any proof either way.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 13:36:34 GMT -5
Marcie- I have proof. The Bible says every man falls short of the Glory of God (Jesus)...it doesnt say "every man but the virgin Mary falls short".  |
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jacee
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by jacee on Apr 7, 2008 14:32:20 GMT -5
Hey all....
No disrespect to any of you or to Mary...but the demons do not tremble at her name.
And I've seen deliverances....it is not the name of Mary that they (demons) are bound and loosed from men and women....and please tell me what name your Priests use when they do the same exorcisms?
Again, no disrespect to her at all.. But as I said before...she herself tells you to listen to her Son.
She is not above Jesus. And is not on any throne.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 7, 2008 14:36:34 GMT -5
Jacee, who has said that Mary is above Jesus? Really...no one suggests that, that would be TOTALLY unchristian. "Thow shalt not have any other Gods besides me" Isnt that what the Bible says.
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 7, 2008 15:06:32 GMT -5
Jesus was God, so he doesn't fall under the category of "all men". The Bible also says nothing about me sinning...no wait, yes it does...it says all fall short...that includes me, you, Mary, every human being that lived on this planet falls short. So I take it you believe Mary never sinned? Yes, we believe that Mary, ONLY because of God's grace, did not sin. You seem not to have read my responses above... Seems like a fair way to debate and a truthful way to find truth, eh? Only because of God's goodness and intervention Mary remained sinless. There is nothing wrong and unbiblical about this. Your view, on the contrary, is the unbiblical one, since you seem to claim that Jesus was only God and not human... This contradicts 2000 years of Christian reflection, those Church Fathers who fought against the Gnostics or Arians or Nestorians, etc. You seem to think you have more authority that the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD (note that this is 300 years after Jesus, while you speak 2000 years after), when they clearly defined that Jesus is both God and Man: "God from God" and again "born of the Virgin Mary and *became man*" And you contradict St. Paul's MANY teachings regarding Jesus' humanity, as well as other NT writers, when they affirm that yes, Jesus died in the flesh, that yes, Jesus took form of a man, form of a slave... |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 7, 2008 15:08:30 GMT -5
I honestly dont know if she ever sinned? Have not seen any proof either way. Since the Bible never claims to be our only source of authority and it points us to Tradition, Sacred Tradition has shown us that Mary was sinless. Even the Reformers believed this. It is only a small portion of modern, American Protestantism who make the stupid mistake and great heresy that the Ark of the New Covenant was not sinless, therefore impure, even though She, the New Ark, had JESUS CHRIST, OUR GOD, within her!! See my response to Emily above, in which I deal with the Ark of the [Old] Covenant, how it had to be undefiled and pure, etc. Pax Christi. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 15:10:46 GMT -5
Juan, I didn't say Jesus was only God, I said He was God...therefore not in the "every man falls short" category.
Do you have any scripture that supports Mary never sinned?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 7, 2008 15:11:44 GMT -5
Ok, this is new to me, people really think that Jesus is only Godly and not a God/man?
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 15:13:18 GMT -5
I'm sure some do, Marcie.
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 7, 2008 15:13:26 GMT -5
Hey all.... No disrespect to any of you or to Mary...but the demons do not tremble at her name. And I've seen deliverances....it is not the name of Mary that they (demons) are bound and loosed from men and women....and please tell me what name your Priests use when they do the same exorcisms? Again, no disrespect to her at all.. But as I said before...she herself tells you to listen to her Son. She is not above Jesus. And is not on any throne. Revelation says she has a crown of 12 stars... a crown and no throne?? that sucks.  Hum, exorcisms indeed invoke the Name of Jesus, I do not know how much they mention Mary. However, in your Bible-only mentality, you're erring, since Genesis says that God will put enmity between the Woman and the Serpent, and that her offspring (Jesus), will crush the Serpents head. The enmity that Catholics claim there is is clearly in Scriptures... Plus, common sense shows us that the devil, a creature of God, hates Mankind, hence it continually tries to deceive us and destroy us. Woulnd't the devil hate much more the Woman that was worthy enough to carry God-Incarnate within her womb?! If Mary is indeed the carrier of Jesus, the Theotokos (God-bearer), if she indeed had the fullness of God within herself, then she must be sinless, she must be exalted by God, especially since she actually remains humble! If this is true, then wouldn't the devil indeed hate her, that not only God took human flesh and became man (we understand the devil hates mankind), but also took flesh inside a WOMAN! Not even a man, but a woman, "the weaker sex", as St. Peter tells us in his epistle... Pax Christi |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:27:38 GMT -5
Jesus was God, so he doesn't fall under the category of "all men". The Bible also says nothing about me sinning...no wait, yes it does...it says all fall short...that includes me, you, Mary, every human being that lived on this planet falls short. So I take it you believe Mary never sinned? No, no, no. Jesus was truly God AND truly Man. He was 100% Man while He was 100% God. You cannot separate the two or you'd be denying the very doctrine of His divinity. According to your "literal" usage of that term, then Jesus (who is part of the "all") sinned. In fact, The Bible says that Jesus literally "became sin". You do know that, right? Is this an example of you deciding for yourself what is literal and what is symbolic? All have sinned is literal? The woman that gave birth to Jesus in Revelation 12 is symbollic? Pick and choose, pick and choose. Jesus became "Man" and was born into the world. He is literally of of the "all" you refer to. So you have to include Him. And you have to completely ignore Luke 1 when Mary is called sinless (full of God's favor...a sinner cannot be full of God's favor). |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:29:00 GMT -5
Hey all.... No disrespect to any of you or to Mary...but the demons do not tremble at her name. And I've seen deliverances....it is not the name of Mary that they (demons) are bound and loosed from men and women....and please tell me what name your Priests use when they do the same exorcisms? Again, no disrespect to her at all.. But as I said before...she herself tells you to listen to her Son. She is not above Jesus. And is not on any throne. Does the Bible say that demons tremble at God's name? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:31:14 GMT -5
Juan, I didn't say Jesus was only God, I said He was God...therefore not in the "every man falls short" category. Do you have any scripture that supports Mary never sinned? Hail, full of grace. My soul rejoices in God (not Jesus) my Saviour. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:31:53 GMT -5
Ok, this is new to me, people really think that Jesus is only Godly and not a God/man? Yes. Christianity calls them "heretics". |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 15:34:22 GMT -5
Cepha- I know Jesus was fully man, but since He was fully God also, He could not and did not sin.
And how do those two comments support that she was sinnless...?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:38:27 GMT -5
Cepha- I know Jesus was fully man, but since He was fully God also, He could not and did not sin. And how do those two comments support that she was sinnless...? But, being fully Man, he is one of the "all" mentioned when you say that all men are liars or that all have sinned. Jesus was a man. Does the Bible say "all men but Jesus"? I'm just using your same examples here. And, no human that is in a state of sin can be in God's favor. Also, she was saved before Jesus was born. She called God her Saviour (not Jesus). Also, Jesus said no good fruit can come from a bad tree. If Mary was bad (sinful), then Jesus couldn't have come from her. She is the tree that produced the fruit that is Jesus (Scripture: "Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.") |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 15:42:11 GMT -5
Good fruit comes from sinners all the time. Mary could have sinned and still been used by God. All Christians have sinned yet are still used by God.
Jesus was a man, but He is not included in those verses because He was also God. "All men fall short of God's (Jesus's) glory."
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:49:15 GMT -5
You contradict Jesus Christ.
Luke 6
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For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Is Jesus sinless Emily?
Yes.
If Jesus is sinless, what does that say about womb that bore Him (Mary, since she bore Him)?
That is if you accept Jesus teaching that by the fruit, you will know the tree.
So you're saying that Jesus is "not" included in the "all men", right?
Where is your scripture to prove that?
Does it say "all men except Jesus?"
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 15:53:42 GMT -5
I still sin, yet I bear good fruit. Born again Christians are called to bear good fruit, works..yet Chrisitans still sin.
Jesus is the glory that men fall short of...He can't fall short of His own glory...
Romans 3: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 15:55:34 GMT -5
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