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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 15:57:27 GMT -5
The tree didn't have to be perfect, just obeidient. God uses immperfect trees to produce good fruit all the time.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 16:01:21 GMT -5
The tree didn't have to be perfect, just obeidient. God uses immperfect trees to produce good fruit all the time. That's not what Jesus says...Jesus says: "For every tree is known by his own fruit."No where does it say the tree has to be obedient. A tree produces what it is. That's what Jesus says, right? And Jesus is literally called Mary's fruit, right? So, according to Jesus' words, what does that make Mary if Jesus is The Fruit? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 16:17:51 GMT -5
God works thru people, it doesn't make the people themselves perfect...but the product perfect.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 16:20:30 GMT -5
God works thru people, it doesn't make the people themselves perfect...but the product perfect. You're not responding to what Jesus said M. Come on now...simple question. What does what Jesus said make Mary if He is her fruit? "For every tree is known by his own fruit." |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 16:30:38 GMT -5
...God? I can see where you're trying to get...but Mary was not perfect, she was a sinner, used by God like the rest of us.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 16:33:05 GMT -5
...God? I can see where you're trying to get...but Mary was not perfect, she was a sinner, used by God like the rest of us. So you're saying that in this instance, Jesus was wrong? Or that there is an acception for Mary? You still haven't answered the question. What does Mary's Fruit (Jesus Christ) make Mary? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 16:38:16 GMT -5
You want me to say perfect. Knowing them by their fruit means we will know who is Christians and who are not by their works. Not what their sin is or if they are sinnless. I just bleieve what the Bible says...All have fallen short.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 16:57:22 GMT -5
You want me to say perfect. Knowing them by their fruit means we will know who is Christians and who are not by their works. Not what their sin is or if they are sinnless. I just bleieve what the Bible says...All have fallen short. So you don't take Jesus' words "literally" in this instance but you take the "all men sinned" quote "literally"? The only difference in the two is that Jesus actually said one of those two things. I trust in Jesus 100%. I'm not confused by His words. He says that you can tell a person by what they produce. I can tell what Mary is by what Mary produced...Jesus Christ. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 18:20:25 GMT -5
You can tell whether a person is genuinely a Christian by their works.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 20:19:11 GMT -5
You can tell whether a person is genuinely a Christian by their works. What about persons who "act" Christlike, but don't believe in Jesus Christ? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 7, 2008 21:24:48 GMT -5
They will not bear fruit that associates them with Christ. They will not share the Gospel, pray for other's Salvation, etc.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 21:57:25 GMT -5
They will not bear fruit that associates them with Christ. They will not share the Gospel, pray for other's Salvation, etc. So there are "conditions" to your statement? |
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jacee
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by jacee on Apr 7, 2008 23:17:43 GMT -5
This is just how misunderstandings confuse.....sheesh Cepha....you are trying to say that since Mary was pregnant with Jesus that is equal to christians producing good fruit? Give me a fat break....a comment that I would clip right out, but sure can understand....Is not the same and you know it.
Mary sinned or not has nothing to do with anything....neither does it matter to God what sins a person commits....
You guys don't know basic doctrine.
Jesus came to set us free from a sin nature. What we are born with has a bent to sin.
One who has not received the great salvation offered by Jesus Christ is still in his sin. He hasn't passed from death to life. Is still of the kingdom of darkness. God is never going to say to someone, you are in hell because you did such and such. It is because you rejected my Son. The very plan of Father was to give His Son from the garden of Eden.
And is not in scripture that Gabriel said Hail Mary full of grace. I posted that elsewhere....
Before Jesus came, and before Pentecost....Holy Spirit moved "on" people. Or angels appeared and gave messages such as Mary received. Mary was as Abraham was plus any other men or women who were spoken to by Gods voice, or by angels. They heard, and they received it in obedience.
Makes them special people for sure....but not elevated ever to the status of God.
And Cephas it is the name of Jesus that demons run from. I would like to see you try and use just the title God and see what happens. Actually no I wouldn't. You might not make it out of the clutches of it alive.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 23:36:43 GMT -5
No. What Jesus said (not me) is that you can tell a tree by the fruit it produces. Right? So, if Jesus is "the fruit" of Mary, what does that say about Mary? Easy simple question. (that no one's answering) It does...in this topic. We're discussing how Jesus could be created from sinful flesh, yet remain sinless. That is the exchange here. It might not have anything to do with anything on another thread, but on this thread, "this" is the topic. That's not what The Bible says. Romans 2 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Even Jesus says that it's not what you "believe", but what you "do" that saves you. Remember, even Satan and Demons believe in Jesus, are they saved? Negative. Faith doesn't save. God saves. No man's faith saves him. It's God's decision that saves him. No body ever said that it was. You might as well say "it is not in scripture that there is a Bible" because that statement is true too and no one brought that up either. Point? Nobody ever argued that it wasn't Jesus' who demons run from? Why are you posting that off topic statement?  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 23:38:39 GMT -5
See everybody?
I told you!
"They become & feel animosity, indignant, angry, wrathful, bitterness, detestation, dislike, hostility, ill will, loathing, malice, rancor and spite towards the mere mention of Mary."
So predictable.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 7, 2008 23:41:18 GMT -5
Hail Mary, full of grace, blessed art thou and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death.
Amen. 
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Post by alfie on Apr 15, 2008 13:48:05 GMT -5
That's ok. She still loves you like a daughter even though you don't accept the Biblical revelation that the woman who gave birth to Jesus brought our eternal life through her womb making her our spiritual mother.  How could God be your Father, Jesus your brother and Mary (who is Jesus' mother) "not" be your mother? How funny since Catholics are always saying that Jesus didn't have any brothers and sisters. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 13:51:15 GMT -5
That's ok. She still loves you like a daughter even though you don't accept the Biblical revelation that the woman who gave birth to Jesus brought our eternal life through her womb making her our spiritual mother. How could God be your Father, Jesus your brother and Mary (who is Jesus' mother) "not" be your mother? How funny since Catholics are always saying that Jesus didn't have any brothers and sisters. You left something out there..."biological" brothers and sisters. |
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Post by reinabella on Apr 20, 2008 14:37:35 GMT -5
"No. What Jesus said (not me) is that you can tell a tree by the fruit it produces. Right? So, if Jesus is "the fruit" of Mary, what does that say about Mary? "
I just wnat to understand what you're saying w/ this statement about the fruit and the tree. In a modern comparison, are you saying that say, a serial killer is bound to produce a child who is a serial killer or a rapist or some other atrocious person... That person cannot produce a child who say, is a priest.. or a Christian or what not? On that same token, are you saying that the fruits of all Christians, Catholics, Protestant..whatever.. will produce wonderful fruit?
I don't want to assume what your point is so I"m asking.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 20, 2008 22:52:13 GMT -5
Great theological question. A serial killer will produce a sinful child as all human beings do. If we were to go into details of sin (not just speaking generally), well then Mary couldn't have produced Jesus at all for He was sinless. Mary would have to be sinless for her to have produced Jesus. We all produce rotten fruit (children automatically born into sin). That's a given. Unless God removes that child's sin before birth, they are born sinful. So it is not a good fruit. Is the child of a pedophile capable of becomming a Nun? The child of a Holy Deacon capable of becomming a mass murderer? Of course. Both were born sinners. Only one Human being wasn't born a sinner. Mary. Jesus was "formed" sinless and ended up becomming sin anyway. Literally. Didn't you ever notice the reversal of roles for the woman? Eve was formed of Adam's body exclusively. Jesus was formed of Mary's body exclusively. Death was introduced into man's bloodline by Eve. Life was introduced into man's bloodline by Mary. Great questions Bella. |
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