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Post by Cepha on Jun 27, 2008 13:59:34 GMT -5
Does The Bible ever call The Saints "dead"?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 27, 2008 22:11:25 GMT -5
no because they are alive, just like when we die, we are alive in heavan. no-brainer!
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Post by Cepha on Jun 27, 2008 22:13:45 GMT -5
no because they are alive, just like when we die, we are alive in heavan. no-brainer! Actually, some believe that The Saints are dead.  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 28, 2008 2:45:27 GMT -5
ok, so everyone "dies" so i guess you think everyone just dies and thats it. Noone is alive in heavan is what you are saying?
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Post by knuckle on Jun 28, 2008 5:59:40 GMT -5
Folks spirits are in heaven but they are not alive--it is like God keeps them in a memory
much love-----------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 28, 2008 8:52:05 GMT -5
Folks spirits are in heaven but they are not alive--it is like God keeps them in a memory much love-----------knuckle Mornin' Knucks.  Matthew 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." All of these men were "physically" dead when this was said, so He was speaking of their "spirits" and He said these spirits are not dead, but are living. This is what "Jesus" said. And 5 chapters later, it would go on to state that The Saints would physically rise from their graves upon His sacrifice. Matthew 27:52-53 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; 52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. When Saint Stephen was stoned, he did not die, but fell to sleep (because holy men don't die when they are physically killed, but fall in a state known Biblically as "sleep" until God ressurects them like He did with Jesus Christ). Acts 7: 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 8 1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church which was in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men buried Stephen, and made great lamentation over him. What man calls "dead", The Word of God calls "sleep" and eternal life is promised to all those that are justified in Christ "after" His sacrifice was made. In Rev 5:8 & 8:3 where The Saints are in heaven praying, we see that they are not dead. The dead cannot pray. An no where in The Bible does it ever refer to The Saints as dead. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 28, 2008 8:57:15 GMT -5
ok, so everyone "dies" so i guess you think everyone just dies and thats it. Noone is alive in heavan is what you are saying? Hey CC, The original question was "Does The Bible ever call The Saints "dead"?" The Bible never calls a Saint "dead". Nor does it ever state that after The Sacrifice of Christ (which is that time from the moment of His own physical death until now), no where in The Bible does it ever call a Saint either dead or in sleep. Once their sins had been payed for, they were raised. And, as The Bible says (even about men who physically died, but are considered by us to be Saints), they are called the "living" and not the "dead".  |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 28, 2008 10:36:17 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------
the DEAD in Christ-----1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Now being as we are still here the dead in Christ must still be dead
much love----------knuckle
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jun 28, 2008 10:49:22 GMT -5
Ok, i believe that our spirits with be alive and well in heavan, Jesus raise from the dead to give us ETERNAL LIFE.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 28, 2008 10:56:41 GMT -5
Hi Cepha------------- the DEAD in Christ-----1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Now being as we are still here the dead in Christ must still be dead much love----------knuckle This Protestant put it best I think... I tried to post as little as possible, but it does a very scholarly job of explaining the differences: ____________________________________________________ Let's examine how the Bible considers man's first death. When the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. In fact, when Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated that they were not dead, but simply asleep: Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11) And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn... (Mark 5:39-40) Was Jesus lying, or did He know something which no one else knew? Of course, the answer is the latter. If Jesus lied about the dead being asleep when they were actually dead, then He sinned and could not be a valid sacrifice for the sins of mankind. If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all. It does not meet the definition of death. That is, it is not final. As doctors and medical technicians "restore life" to someone after their heart has stopped for twenty minutes, God is going to restore the physical life of nonbelievers many years after their first "death" at the second resurrection. In many cases after having been "dead" for thousands of years. Therefore, their first death is not actually a death because it is not final and permanent. They will live again. It is final to us here on the earth. That is, man cannot restore another man's life after his first death, only God can. So Jesus did not lie when He stated that Lazarus' stinking body which had been lying in the grave for four days was only sleeping: Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. (John 11:39) When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death: Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14) In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, did He lie. Both statements are true! One was from God's point of view, and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective, there is one true death, the second death. Once one understands the two deaths described in the Bible, it becomes easier to understand the scriptures. However, one needs to distinguish which is being referred to in the context of each verse. Words such as sleep, slumber, and rest are used to refer to man's first death. Words such as die, death, and perish are used to refer to man's permanent second death. For example: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4) Since die is used, this scripture refers to the second death. Otherwise, the word sleep or rest would have been used. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore, we are all headed for the second death. The good news is that God intervenes: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) myth-one.com/chapter_4.htm |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 28, 2008 11:03:28 GMT -5
Ok, i believe that our spirits with be alive and well in heavan, Jesus raise from the dead to give us ETERNAL LIFE. Not only them CC, but don't forget The Saints that were actually raised from their sleep (who died physically) and who walked the earth when Jesus died. Some have suggested that they died again after they walked the earth, but wouldn't this be a false ressurection of The Saints then? Can't be...so, what happened to all of those Saints that were ressurected in body AND in spirit when Jesus payed the price for their sin and why were only The Saints raised while other's weren't? There was no proof that they all walked the earth while Jesus was with them, so there can't be any automatic assumptions that they were Christians. Matthew 27 clearly states that The Saints were raised from their sleep "after" they physically died. So that means that the soul was dormant even as the flesh was dead. Jesus' death ressurected their flesh. So where are they today? If they already died and were raised, did they die again? Did Lazarus die again? Or was he allowed to permanently live? Ultimately, it all boils down to this...does The Bible in any place say that the Saints in Heaven are dead? Of course they died physically...they had to in order to get to heaven (except those that God assumpted into Heaven without a physical death). But are they "dead" in Heaven? |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 28, 2008 11:54:23 GMT -5
Spirit + body = soul
a body without spirit is dead, a spirit without body is dead you have to have both
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
And again:
Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The dead are all "fallen asleep." They would remain so forever were it not for a resurrection of the dead. Without a resurrection from the dead, "the dead...are perished
1 Cor 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
much love------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jun 28, 2008 12:08:04 GMT -5
Spirit + body = soul a body without spirit is dead, a spirit without body is dead you have to have both Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. And again: Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. The dead are all "fallen asleep." They would remain so forever were it not for a resurrection of the dead. Without a resurrection from the dead, "the dead...are perished 1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. much love------------knuckle How does that explain The Saints that were ressurected when Jesus died? |
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Post by knuckle on Jun 28, 2008 12:27:41 GMT -5
The same question applies to the widows son,Jairus' daughter and Lazarus---they were resurrected to the flesh and so,they died
The only "man" in heaven is Christ the one who came down from heaven the First fruits of them that slept all else must wait until Christ comes again
much love---------knuckle
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Post by teresahrc on Jul 9, 2008 13:13:17 GMT -5
Question: When Jesus died, did He just "sleep" ? No, His Spirit left His body, He preached to souls in "prison" then He was resurrected. So, it is only our bodies that "Sleep" and at the resurrection, our bodies will be glorified like His. That is why St. Paul could say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Some are also Bodily in heaven, though I'm not going to pretend like I understand what all is going on in Heaven, but we do know that at the very least Elijah, Enoch and the Blessed Virgin are bodily there, though many believe that Elijah and Enoch are the 2 "prophets' in Rev. that will return and die, oh boy where am I going with this?
On a lighter note: My dearest Grandmother, Teresa, died before I was born and her tombstone has her name and my Grandfather's name on it. Later on, he remarried and my "other" Grandmother died a few years ago. She is buried with a tombstone that has her name on it and my Grandfather's name!! One day when I was there with him he said, "When I die, I'm going to be cremated and have them put half of the ashes with (Teresa) and half with (Wilma). I don't know what's going to happen at the resurrection!"
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Jul 9, 2008 13:35:46 GMT -5
The thing is, The Saints rose from their graves before Jesus rose from His own tomb.
The price for their original sin was paid so they didn't have to remain in "sleep" anymore.
Jesus was the only Holy One to actually die and go to hell.
The Saints never went to Hell.
To Puerto Ricans, our mothers & grandmothers are all Saints! ;D
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Post by knuckle on Jul 9, 2008 16:33:05 GMT -5
Hi Cepha----------
as long as you are in a flesh body you know that the dead still sleep---we are all changed at the same time
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now for a comforting thought----we will all experience dying but not one of us will experience death
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing
from the moment a person closes their eyes in death till they awake in the resurrection the know not anything ---- time has no bearing on them it is instantaneous from their perspective--
if ten thousand years pass from the moment we die until Jesus comes to us it will be a twinkling of the eye-- we blink and we are with Him so if one wants to think of Momma or Gran as already there that's fine because from their perspective,they are----but the idea that they are looking down watching us now---sorry Bro. it just isn't like that.
much love-----------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Jul 9, 2008 17:36:25 GMT -5
Hi Cepha---------- as long as you are in a flesh body you know that the dead still sleep---we are all changed at the same time much love-----------------knuckle Hey Knucks, What about The Saints that were raised in Matthew 27:52? And what about all of The Saint seen in Heaven in Revelations "before" the final judgement? pax |
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Post by righteousone on Jul 10, 2008 18:01:58 GMT -5
Their bodies of flesh are dead, but their souls will live eternally.
There are thousands of saints who were martyred for the faith. Any non-Catholic can see this and perhaps ask themselves, the Catholic faith must be the religion Jesus had founded, seeing all the holiness of the saints, and from 2,000 years ago.
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Post by knuckle on Jul 12, 2008 7:54:06 GMT -5
Hi R1-------------
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again(a fleshly resurrection (Lazarus,the widows son Jarius daughter): and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: (the resurrection at Jesus coming)
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (the saints throughout history Isaiah David Noah Abraham)
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (were not,are not resurrected yet they are dead)
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (us=the elect, the just, those in Christ and in the first resurrection who will preach Jesus during the millennium so that all may know the truth)
much love------------knuckle
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