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Post by yarddog on Aug 2, 2008 13:04:12 GMT -5
Wow, you have been truly blessed by God. I am happy you found your way into the church Jesus founded. doesn't it all make sense now? Have you studied the history of the Catholic church? You will get your conclusion from that. To bad other Baptists like yourself haven't seen the light yet. (Sorry, former baptist). Maybe you should also get into the baptist forum and tell people your story, but they'll probably ban you as soon as you mention the word "Catholic". Pretty close-minded to the history of the church. They think God just dropped down a bible and that was that.  I have studied the history of the Church but I don't see the Church as being only the Catholic Church but all people and churches that God has given his Holy Spirit to. I was in a discussion with a woman about the Church and was trying to show history of the Church when God spoke to me and said, "Proof of the Church cannot be found in history but in the presence of the Holy Spirit." Just as Peter knew the gentiles had been accepted as God's children through baptism in his Spirit, so we must also see the Holy Spirit at work in the Catholic Church and in all places and people that truely love God the Father and his Son. God Bless, Yarddog |
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Post by redsoxfan on Aug 2, 2008 18:02:30 GMT -5
That has never been denied. One can see that in any practice of the lord's supper where it is not Catholic. The belief is then in those cases it is not the body and blood of Jesus, but that the Holy Spirit is there in some form.
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Post by righteousone on Aug 2, 2008 18:15:41 GMT -5
Then Yarddog, to me your heart is not in the Roman Catholic church because the church IS the Roman Catholic church. So if you claim you are RC, then you had better know your history and how Christ founded the Catholic church. Otherwise, you are just fooling yourself with that answer. Catholics don't usually debate each other because we know the truth already. They know where there church comes from, no questions asked.
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Post by righteousone on Aug 2, 2008 18:17:14 GMT -5
That has never been denied. One can see that in any practice of the lord's supper where it is not Catholic. The belief is then in those cases it is not the body and blood of Jesus, but that the Holy Spirit is there in some form. Who is talking about the Lord's supper? Jesus hadn't told Peter yet to start his church. You also need a history lesson. |
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Post by yarddog on Aug 2, 2008 18:26:05 GMT -5
Then Yarddog, to me your heart is not in the Roman Catholic church because the church IS the Roman Catholic church. So if you claim you are RC, then you had better know your history and how Christ founded the Catholic church. Otherwise, you are just fooling yourself with that answer. Catholics don't usually debate each other because we know the truth already. They know where there church comes from, no questions asked. Hello, Yeah, I seem to get that from RCs. I am am still a member of the Catholic Church whether some choose to say what they may. Personally, I classify myself as a Christian and a member of the RCC. I don't want anyone to think that exclude myself from anyone who is a child of God. I have no doubt about then RCC's place with God and the Church. God has shown me many wonderful things about the love which flows from it, but the Church is far more than the Catholic Church and the RCC knows that as well. In the spirit of ecumenism, the Pontiff is reaching out to all christians in hope of bringing all closer together. God Bless, Yarddog |
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Post by righteousone on Aug 2, 2008 18:32:42 GMT -5
Yarddog, it doesn't matter about anything else but the church that Jesus started. You are what you call a cafeteria Catholic, you pick and choose which suits your liking. Sounds to me like you are in the wrong church with your views.
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Post by yarddog on Aug 2, 2008 18:51:59 GMT -5
Yarddog, it doesn't matter about anything else but the church that Jesus started. You are what you call a cafeteria Catholic, you pick and choose which suits your liking. Sounds to me like you are in the wrong church with your views. The only thing that matters is that which comes from God the Father. He welcomed me into his Church with open arms. He first taught me to trust only in his Word and then Jesus Christ promised me a room in his Father's house. No man can take that from me. We can choose to be divisive or we can choose to be unifying. I choose to accept that my Father in heaven gives me. A member of the Church by the choice of God. Invited to the feast. God Bless, Yarddog |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 3, 2008 2:23:20 GMT -5
There is only one thing we have that makes us "The" Church YD and no other church has this...The Eucharist. Where you find The Eucharist, you find The Church. And only one Church has The Eucharist. The Universal Church of Christ (AKA The Catholic [universal] Church). There is nothing more than The Catholic Church. "The Church" you refer to literally "is" The Catholic Church. What you said "... but the Church is far more than the Catholic Church and the RCC knows that as well." is a serious misrepresentation of what The Church believes and teaches. I think you should seriously study that before you make such statements. While she does not deny the Christianity of any individual member of our religion, she definately distinguishes between those that are and aren't in full communion with Jesus' Church. The very definition of Jesus' Church is marked by it's unity as Paul so strongly taught us. Paul didn't say "let there be divisions among you". He said "let there be NO divisions among you". He told us to all be of same religious practices, of the same beliefs and of the same actions when it came to our faith. It was never ok to do your own thing. Paul and Peter and the rest of The Apostles were strict with there being one unified Church with one faith (not a collective of several different beliefs systems as long as they all had Jesus in common). Good reading: www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htmOf course, you're entitled to feel whatever you want to feel, but personally speaking, for myself, I firmly believe that our faith is not about going with what feels right or what feels good to us. It's about going with what is The Truth. Even if that truth goes against what we believe is right. It's not about our comfort, but about our coming into a realization of the things we need to know (even if they make us feel uneasy). If one is a Christian and is "not" a Catholic (universal Christian), then they are a Denominational Christian (an offshoot of Catholicism). Jesus was a universal Savior, not a denominational Savior. Jesus only taught one way, not different ways for different people. I guarantee you that if you place Jesus' words first, you will be convinced that The Catholic Church is Jesus' Church and it is the only Church Jesus built. It's like Highlander..."there can be only one." You will only find The Eucharist in one Church. And where The Eucharist is, there Christ is not only spiritually, but physically. I can never convince you of this. Only God can. But on your walk to The Church, there was no way I could read what you wrote without having responded. Why? Simply to correct a misstatement you made regaring "what" The Church knows. There is no other Church besides The Catholic Church. There are "churches" which can all be traced to a human/not-ordained founder. But only "one" Church was founded by Jesus Christ. The universal Christian Church (universal literally means catholic). All other churches are based on a person, place or event pretty much. Some even are based on being "church-less" (which is a total contradiction in and of itself). I'd really love to continue this topic if you agree to talk about it and we can define "what" The Church knows. For starters, The Catechism is the best place to start as to what The Church "knows" (there, you'll find on which scriptures The Church bases her beliefs). Pax |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 3, 2008 2:35:18 GMT -5
If the "truth" divides, then so be it. Let the wheat be sifted. If one's faith is true, then they cannot be divided. But if their faith is not based on truth, then, there can be division.
There can be no unity without truth.
If there is one thing in The Catechism that you don't believe, then you are no a Catholic. No ceremony, not profession of faith, no ritual will make you a universal Christian. Only your faith will. All those things are used to incorporate one into The Church, but unless there is 100% full accord with The Church's teachings, then one is "not" a Catholic.
If The Pope told me to jump off a bridge, I would do it. Extreme? Yes. But nobody could doubt my faith because I walk it like I talk it 100%. The only thing imperfect in me is me, but The Church I belong to is infallible. So is what she teaches. Jesus didn't create a fallible organization. Men fail, but never Jesus' Church.
God called you to The Church. Great. Now, allow yourself to believe "what" she teaches. Accept it in totality.
I wish everybody knew His Church as I do. I wasn't indoctrinted into it. I wasn't grandfathered into it. I was literally proven, by Jesus Himself that his was His Church and was the only Church started by Christ and "is" the only Church started by Christ. It was the House of God founded upon Peter (The Rock). And when she was tested, she withstood the test of the spirits as it tried to overwhelm her with waves of attacks by Satan.
All other Christian churches are man made. Man is made of sand (soil). When those houses of worship were tested, they failed and fell into many, many pieces (denominations). Why? Because they weren't founded upon The Rock.
This fracturing of Christianity was prophesized by Jesus in Matthew 7:
24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
25 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and if fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.
26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and smote upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall thereof.
I ask you, which of those two houses sounds like what happened during The Protestant Reformation and which one of those sounds like The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that can trace it's foundation back to it's first Pope, Saint Peter?
Ok, "that's" a loaded question, but trust me, read Matthew 7 again and compare it to history and the truth will not be denied. Remember what it says about those who build their churches upon men.
Pax.
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Post by yarddog on Aug 3, 2008 10:09:16 GMT -5
Yarddog, it doesn't matter about anything else but the church that Jesus started. You are what you call a cafeteria Catholic, you pick and choose which suits your liking. Sounds to me like you are in the wrong church with your views. How do you know that I am a cafeteria catholic? I say that the Church is more than the Catholic Church and the RCC agrees. I guess that depends on what you and I call the Catholic Church. Many Catholics refer to the Catholic Church as all those in communion with the RCC, I'm sure that my definition isn't quite right. The RCC also sees the catholic Church as more. Maybe you can tell me what I pick and choose? Yarddog |
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Post by yarddog on Aug 3, 2008 10:44:20 GMT -5
Hello Cepha,
I appreciate the things that you wrote but I am what God is guiding me too. There was a time when I would carry things on further, but God has shown me that I should not be divisive and that is what happens when things get taken too far.
I love the Roman Catholic Church and see so much beauty coming forth from her, but I also cannot turn from the spoken word of God.
Many times definitions get in the way. What is in one person's head may not quite sit right with another because they look at the definition differently.
When I see "The Church", I see all people that God has given his Holy Spirit to because that is what he said through his spoken word and I cannot turn from that. He has blessed me with many miracles, of which I have only written a few of, here. To turn from that would be a failure of faith.
God Bless,
Yarddog
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Post by righteousone on Aug 3, 2008 11:11:08 GMT -5
Not just any Bible righteous one, a King James Authorized version, but not the original printing because it had the Apocrypha! King James has so many errors in it it isn't funny. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 3, 2008 13:52:41 GMT -5
Sifting the wheat is a good thing brother YD.  You won't be divisive in sharing your beliefs. When you say the "spoken" word of God, what do you mean? Did you mean the "written" word? The Bible? Or are you referring to personal revelation? (asked in sincerity ) Agreed! That's why before I judge one's words, I ask for clarification. Again, is this "personal revelation" to you directly? Or was this taught to you from scripture or did you yourself find it in scripture? Why would you have to turn from that? I have had many miracles too. Pax. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 3, 2008 13:53:56 GMT -5
Not just any Bible righteous one, a King James Authorized version, but not the original printing because it had the Apocrypha! King James has so many errors in it it isn't funny. Word! KJV Bible is not The Holy Bible, but a Protestant "version" based "on" The Holy Bible. No man has the right to authorize God's Word. |
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Post by redsoxfan on Aug 3, 2008 15:42:59 GMT -5
That has never been denied. One can see that in any practice of the lord's supper where it is not Catholic. The belief is then in those cases it is not the body and blood of Jesus, but that the Holy Spirit is there in some form. Who is talking about the Lord's supper? Jesus hadn't told Peter yet to start his church. You also need a history lesson. That would be obvious to see if you had read the post above mine. Yarddog was talking about the presence of the Holy Spirit in other churches. The Church acknowledges that the Holy Spirit can be present in the lord's supper in other churches beyond Catholic and Orthodox. By the fact that the Holy Spirit is present in the communion in other churches would thereby prove that it would be present in other churches. All be it not to the point that it is in Catholic Churches. That really wasn't that hard to follow. Keep up man. And I have a BA in History.  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 3, 2008 15:48:42 GMT -5
It can even be present in a men's bathroom with two Christians talking about Christ. It's not The Holy Spirit that determines The Real Presence, but the consecration by an ordained Priest. I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night! ;D
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Post by righteousone on Aug 3, 2008 17:21:00 GMT -5
You may have a BA in history, so what? You don't have a BA in church history, Scripture or Theology.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 3, 2008 18:26:41 GMT -5
You may have a BA in history, so what? You don't have a BA in church history, Scripture or Theology. I once took a class at the Red Cross to learn 1st Aid. ;D |
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Post by yarddog on Aug 3, 2008 22:17:54 GMT -5
Sifting the wheat is a good thing brother YD. You won't be divisive in sharing your beliefs. If I allow things to become arguementive then it is divisive. No, I mean the spoken "Word." I hear the voice of the Spirit at times, though it has been about 2 years or more since the last time I heard his voice. This is from the New Advent site: www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm Meaning of revelation Revelation may be defined as the communication of some truth by God to a rational creature through means which are beyond the ordinary course of nature. The truths revealed may be such as are otherwise inaccessible to the human mind -- mysteries, which even when revealed, the intellect of man is incapable of fully penetrating. But Revelation is not restricted to these. God may see fit to employ supernatural means to affirm truths, the discovery of which is not per se beyond the powers of reason. The essence of Revelation lies in the fact that it is the direct speech of God to man....... As an example: I was reading in the NT when suddenly the HS spoke and said "The Tree of Life is Jesus, the Tree of Knowledge is the Law and the Tower of Babel represents all those people who try and achieve heaven by their own means, including many christians." These were words that I distinctly heard. Maybe I should ask you what your definition of personal revelation is, it seems to be different to many people. (asked in sincerity ) thanks Thanks again. I've been attacked on other boards before. Instead of trying to understand they spirit from which something is written, they used prejudice to twist all into new meanings. I was in a discussion with a woman about the Church, just as I have had in this thread. I was searching through the ECFs and others writings trying to get an understanding when the HS spoke and said "Proof of the Church cannot be found in history but in the presence of the Holy Spirit." God Bless, Yarddog |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 4, 2008 17:35:56 GMT -5
That's profound. Think about it, it's 100% true. Proof of The Church cannot be found in history because man can manipulate history. But, the rest of that sentence isinuates that proof of The Church is verified by the presence of The Holy Spirit. If there are two men in a public bathroom talking about Jesus, is that a/the church? No. But Jesus is there and where ever Jesus is, isn't The Holy Spirit there? So, "where" does The Holy Spirit dwell according to scripture with regards to The Church? Jesus only said that it would dwell with those Church leaders who started The Cathoic Church. No where in scripture did He nor The Apostles teach that The Holy Spirit would dwell with any other Christian church. So, if all we were to follow those very truthful words and were to follow The Bible, then we know that the only Church which was granted The Holy Spirit to guide it was The Catholic Church. |
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