Jesus had "brothers" and a "sister"?

[emily445455]

uh...I just believe the Bible (and use the brain God gave me)...idc what people call it.

[Cepha]

Apr 8, 2008 20:51:38 GMT -5 emily445455 said:

uh...I just believe the Bible (and use the brain God gave me)...idc what people call it.

Then you "don't" believe in Sola Scriptura?

Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in The Bible, right?

It's only in Lutheran Theology, right?

[emily445455]

sure.

[stelzneri]

You do know that there is no Aramaic word for "cousin" right?

The NT was written in Greek...

Since there is no Biblically historical evidence that Mary ever had other children (much less sex), then the only logical conclusion is that those mentioned were his "kinsmen" which is literally what the Aramaic word for brothers means.

.


"Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

"1 Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?"

This makes a distinction between his literal "brethren" and the apostles.

They were his literal "brothers" not his cousins.

This is the Greek word used for kinsman and cousin in the NT:

"suggenhvß suggenes, soong-ghen-ace'; from 4862 and 1085; a relative (by blood); by extension, a fellow countryman:-- cousin, kin(-sfolk, -sman)."

This is the Greek word used for brethren:

"ajdelfovß adephos, ad-el-fos'; from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like 1):--brother."

[Cepha]

Apr 12, 2008 20:10:56 GMT -5 stelzneri said:

You do know that there is no Aramaic word for "cousin" right?

The NT was written in Greek...

Actually, Aramaic AND Koine Greek. To just say "Greek" might confuse some and lead them to believe you mean modern Greek.

Since there is no Biblically historical evidence that Mary ever had other children (much less sex), then the only logical conclusion is that those mentioned were his "kinsmen" which is literally what the Aramaic word for brothers means.

.


"Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

Don't you "Google" before you post? You should research your standardized answers just to be safe. I swear, you guys must all have this booklet on "how to refute Catholics"! LOL! You must get some kind of training or something, like "Anti-Catholicism 101"!

;D

But hey, let's see what your church fathers say about her perpetual virginity:

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

Ulrich Zwingli


The word talks about what happens up to that point...not what happens after that point).

un·til
–conjunction
1. up to the time that or when; till: He read until his guests arrived.
2. before (usually used in negative constructions): They did not come until the meeting was half over.
–preposition
3. onward to or till (a specified time or occurrence): She worked until 6 p.m.
4. before (usually used in negative constructions): He did not go until night.
5. Scot. and North England. to; unto.

See? This statement isn't a proclamation that Mary had sexual relations after Jesus was born (although I'm sure some of you obsessed with her sexual practices in order to disprove universal Christianity wrong salivate over the prospect).

That statement protects the Virgin Birth.

[stelzneri]

You do know that there is no Aramaic word for "cousin" right?

The NT was written in Greek...

Since there is no Biblically historical evidence that Mary ever had other children (much less sex), then the only logical conclusion is that those mentioned were his "kinsmen" which is literally what the Aramaic word for brothers means.

.


"Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

"1 Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?"

This makes a distinction between his literal "brethren" and the apostles.

They were his literal "brothers" not his cousins.

This is the Greek word used for kinsman and cousin in the NT:

"suggenhvß suggenes, soong-ghen-ace'; from 4862 and 1085; a relative (by blood); by extension, a fellow countryman:-- cousin, kin(-sfolk, -sman)."

This is the Greek word used for brethren:

"ajdelfovß adephos, ad-el-fos'; from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like 1):--brother."

[Cepha]

I love you! I really do! You are just so much fun! LOL!

"1 Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?"

This makes a distinction between his literal "brethren" and the apostles.

How in the world does that prove Jesus had literal brothers?

This is the Greek word used for kinsman and cousin in the NT:

"suggenhvß suggenes, soong-ghen-ace'; from 4862 and 1085; a relative (by blood); by extension, a fellow countryman:-- cousin, kin(-sfolk, -sman)."

Is that "modern" Greek?

Or Koine Greek?

There is a difference.

And don't forget, the Koine Greek was written by native Aramaic speakers who had no word for "cousin" in Aramaic.
Greeks didn't write The Bible.
Jews did.
;D

Here is the Aramaic Version of The Bible:
1COR9:5
5. And, "Why, are we not permitted to have a sister, a wife going around with us, like other apostles, and like our Lord's brothers, and like Keepa [Peter]?"

That doesn't say that these were Mary's children.
It literally says "brothers".
Now, if you read it like a 21st Century American,
you automatically think Mary's kids.
But it wasn't 21st Century Americans who wrote this.
These were 1st Century Jews.

Of course, you can completely discredit this theory by producing the 1st Century word for "cousins" and prove that brothers wasn't used for the word cousins.

(When you don't, I'll drop about 50 other scriptures where the word "brother/brethren" is used to talk about those that are cousins AND show you where those who were called Jesus' brothers are actually His cousins, the sons of Mary, Jesus' mother's cousin! So Bring It! ;D )

This is the Greek word used for brethren:

"ajdelfovß adephos, ad-el-fos'; from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like 1):--brother."

Great.

What does that have to do with Koine?
The Bible wasn't written in Greek.
It was written in Koine.
If you are using a modern word to try to translate a word used in an ancient language that isn't being used anymore, you are doomed to misinterpretation.

Let me know when you get back...ZZZZZZZZZ...

[stelzneri]

Is that "modern" Greek?

Or Koine Greek?

There is a difference.

Koine Greek. Yes I am aware there are some differences between the two. ;D

Of course, you can completely discredit this theory by producing the 1st Century word for "cousins" and prove that brothers wasn't used for the word cousins.

(When you don't, I'll drop about 50 other scriptures where the word "brother/brethren" is used to talk about those that are cousins AND show you where those who were called Jesus' brothers are actually His cousins, the sons of Mary, Jesus' mother's cousin! So Bring It! )

Do it.

[Cepha]

No "church fathers" of mine. They were wrong.

But you're a Protestant, right?

All your beliefs came from them (The 5 Solas, anti-Catholicism, the pope being the beast/anti-Christ, etc...).

Now you're throwing them under the bus?

So if they were wrong, how could you trust Protestantism?

BTW the word "till" carries the meaning that it did happen later.

That's not what the dictionary says. Prove what you say. And cite your source.

Otherwise it would have simply said "he knew her not" no need for the word "till".

That's "if" the focus was (as your's seems to be) on her sexual relations.

The focus is on Jesus Christ being born of a virgin,
not on Mary having had sex.

But hey, if that's what you're looking for,
then you won't see what the scripture is talking about.

[Cepha]

Koine Greek. Yes I am aware there are some differences between the two. ;D

Ok, cite your source please. Prove that it's Koine. Where'd you get that definition from? Website?

Of course, you can completely discredit this theory by producing the 1st Century word for "cousins" and prove that brothers wasn't used for the word cousins.

(When you don't, I'll drop about 50 other scriptures where the word "brother/brethren" is used to talk about those that are cousins AND show you where those who were called Jesus' brothers are actually His cousins, the sons of Mary, Jesus' mother's cousin! So Bring It! )

Do it.

[/quote]

Not this time.

You wormed your way out of our last debate by "not" answering the questions. Because it was your first time, I let it go.

But look at the conditions I placed in that text...you have to provide the proof that the word for "cousins" existed in Aramaic "first". ;D

Thennnnn I'll drop the bomb on you.

So, as I did to you the last time after I asked you the same question over and over and over again (without you answering it), I ask you again (but only once this time):

Prove that the word for cousin existed in 1st Century Aramaic.

[stelzneri]

Ok, cite your source please. Prove that it's Koine. Where'd you get that definition from? Website?

Strong's concordance.

But you're a Protestant, right?

Wrong. ;D''

You wormed your way out of our last debate by "not" answering the questions. Because it was your first time, I let it go.

Which being interpreted means you lost.

But look at the conditions I placed in that text...you have to provide the proof that the word for "cousins" existed in Aramaic "first".

Thennnnn I'll drop the bomb on you

In Koine Greek.

"suggenhvß suggenes, soong-ghen-ace'; from 4862 and 1085; a relative (by blood); by extension, a fellow countryman:-- cousin, kin(-sfolk, -sman)."


BTW please quit editing my posts.... ;D

[Cepha]

Apr 12, 2008 21:06:34 GMT -5 stelzneri said:

Ok, cite your source please. Prove that it's Koine. Where'd you get that definition from? Website?

Strong's concordance.

Page?
(and stop being so illusive! LOL!)

[stelzneri]

Go here: www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html and seach strong's number 4773.

[Cepha]

stelzneri

Wrong. ;D''

Really? Well unless you're a Catholic, if you call yourself a Christian, you are a Protestant because you are outside of The Chruch.

Prot·es·tant
–noun
1. any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican, or Eastern Church.
2. an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them.
3. (originally) any of the German princes who protested against the decision of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which had denounced the Reformation.
4. (lowercase) a person who protests.
–adjective
5. belonging or pertaining to Protestants or their religion.
6. (lowercase) protesting.

Which being interpreted means you lost.

Sure...whatever you say Alice. ;D

But look at the conditions I placed in that text...you have to provide the proof that the word for "cousins" existed in Aramaic "first".

Thennnnn I'll drop the bomb on you

In Koine Greek.

"suggenhvß suggenes, soong-ghen-ace'; from 4862 and 1085; a relative (by blood); by extension, a fellow countryman:-- cousin, kin(-sfolk, -sman)."

That's not what I asked! LOL!
I asked you to show me in Aramaic! ;D

BTW please quit editing my posts.... ;D

Yeah, I noticed I did that!

Sorry, on my screen, the Modify & Quote buttons are right next to each other and when I try to quote you, I modified your post.

Now, I believe I returned your post back to it's original text.

If I haven't, please point out to me where I failed to do it and I will write a disclaimer notifying the board that those are not your words and that I mistakenly edited your text.

Please show me where I didn't correct my mistake, and I'll fix it if I can or write the disclaimer.

[Cepha]

Apr 12, 2008 21:16:23 GMT -5 stelzneri said:

Go here: www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html and seach strong's number 4773.

See that?

I asked you to refer me to a page in a book,
and you point to the library and tell me it's somewhere in there.

Why can't you just give me the webpage you got the information from directly? Why should I have to go hunt down your information? It's common courtesy for you to cite your source.
Especially when you're trying to prove something by referring to that source.

What webpage exactly?

Besides, I'm looking for the Aramaic word for the native language of The Apostles, not Greek. The Greek text are based on the Aramaic language, not the Greek language.

Stop running around and stay still! LOL!

[stelzneri]

That's not what I asked! LOL!
I asked you to show me in Aramaic!

Don't be silly. The bible(NT) was written in koine greek and what the bible says is what we are discussing. What does Aramaic have to do with anything?

Really? Well unless you're a Catholic, if you call yourself a Christian, you are a Protestant because you are outside of The Chruch.

Under definition one in your post I guess I am, but not under any of the others. Hence, I care little more what the "reformers" said than I care about what the catholic "church fathers" said. In many cases both are wrong.

[Cepha]

Apr 12, 2008 21:26:09 GMT -5 stelzneri said:

That's not what I asked! LOL!
I asked you to show me in Aramaic!

Don't be silly. The bible(NT) was written in koine greek and what the bible says is what we are discussing. What does Aramaic have to do with anything?

But it wasn't written by Greeks.
It was written by Jews.
Bigggg difference.
Since there was no word for cousin in Aramaic, they used the next best word they could find that most resembled it...brethren which has multiple meanings.

If in Koine, brothers or brethren only has one meaning, then when Peter called 3,000 he converted brothers, then his mom had 3,000 kids.

You can't have it both ways.

Under definition one in your post I guess I am, but not under any of the others.

Well, according to 99% of Christianity and the rest of the world, you are.

Hence, I care little more what the "reformers" said than I care about what the catholic "church fathers" said. In many cases both are wrong.

Still doesn't answer my question: How could you trust them then if their wrong? (5 Solas, etc...)

[Cepha]

Jesus' "Brothers" (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen
Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."

Amos 1: 9 - brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).

[Cepha]

Do you have a scripture that states the Joseph and Mary were ever married actually?

Does a marriage between the two exist scripturally?

[stelzneri]

But it wasn't written by Greeks.
It was written by Jews.
Bigggg difference.
Since there was no word for cousin in Aramaic, they used the next best word they could find that most resembled it...brethren which has multiple meanings.

Wrong. There is a koine greek word for cousin and they did use it in the NT. Just not for the brothers of Jesus. Don't forget:

"2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

If in Koine, brothers or brethren only has one meaning, then when Peter called 3,000 he converted brothers, then his mom had 3,000 kids. You can't have it both ways.

In koine greek, "brethren" can be used in a general sense or a particular sense. Much like we can use the word "brother" in english as literal or for brothers in Christ. HOWEVER there is a specific word for cousin which is indeed used in the NT.

"Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."

Now your arguement that he was using it in a general sense might stand if it were not for these verses:

"John 7:3-5 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. For neither did his brethren believe in him."

"1 Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?"

Both of those verses show he is speaking literal brothers not
brothers in a wide sense. As I have said, if they were his cousins, they would have used the greek word for that.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Agreed. It does not ALWAYS mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Wrong, Paul makes a distinction between the two.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."

All these are OT references. The OT was written in HEBREW not KOINE GREEK. Of course Greek and Hebrew have different words and different meanings. lol