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Post by watchman on Feb 23, 2009 19:59:32 GMT -5
When you deny God's word because the pope or the church says otherwise, I call that worship. Tell that to Jesus who instituted The Church... Luke 10:16 " He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." You confuse the true Apostolic church with your false version of it.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 23, 2009 20:31:39 GMT -5
Tell that to Jesus who instituted The Church... Luke 10:16 " He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." You confuse the true Apostolic church with your false version of it. Where is that the true Apostolic church if it's not The Universal Christian Church? Can I have the address (and I don't want to hear any of that "jive" about..."Oh, the "church" isn't a building, it's a spiritual body..." blah, blah, blah...")? And, how do you confirm that that particular "church" is the "true Apostolic church"? I'm assuming you throw out the 4 marks of The Church that The Church Fathers you quoted professed (that it be one, holy, universal and Apostolic). Right? So, how did you come to the conclusion that there is a church outside of The Universal Christian Church that is the "true Apostolic church"?
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Post by watchman on Feb 23, 2009 20:39:09 GMT -5
You confuse the true Apostolic church with your false version of it. Where is that the true Apostolic church if it's not The Universal Christian Church? What is known as Catholicism, or Roman catholicism, is not the universal church. God true universal Church is all true believers regardless of what denomination they are in. most of people in all the denominations are actually lost and very few are truly saved (I am sure many will disagree) but God does have a remnant, and that remnant is not confined to one denomination but is scattered through out all of Christiandom. This remnant of true believers is God's one true Universal Church.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 23, 2009 21:30:53 GMT -5
Where is that the true Apostolic church if it's not The Universal Christian Church? What is known as Catholicism, or Roman catholicism, is not the universal church. How did you come to that conclusion? I mean, you'd have to completely discount 2,000 years of history to even begin to entertain that then base it on information that doesnt' exist. But I look forward to your "evidence". That's not "scriptural". There were no denominations in The Bible. So, where did you get this personal belief from since it didn't come from scripture? Yeah, their like the Jews of today that "still" feel chosen even though they rejected Jesus. And these "remnants" coincidentally use which Old Testament? The OT of those that rejected Jesus too, do it makes sense that they would adopt this "we're special and scattered" belief even though Jesus said the following about being scattered: Matthew 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."Wow! You're right! You are scattered! So, in being one of the scattered, you are "not" with Christ! But against Him. Ok. I agree with you. How could they be "God's one true Universal Church" when they reject Apostolic teachings? I don't get that? They reject The Eucharist. They reject Christian Ritual and Tradition. They reject The Church that God chose to create The Holy Bible that they based their own "version" of a bible on. How can they be true when they reject Jesus' Church?
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Post by watchman on Feb 23, 2009 22:34:38 GMT -5
You do not know what the remnant rejects or believes you probably have never took the time to listen to one if you have ever seen one.
Catholicism is simply not God's church because it opposes the teachings of scripture.
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.
Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.
Galatians 3:28-29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 6:15-16 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.
All who worship God in Spirit and in truth are part of one body regardless if we ever meet or not. It is possible for a catholic person to be a part of God's remnant, but I can confidently say by the fruit you produce and your denial of God's truth that you are not among us.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 24, 2009 18:38:04 GMT -5
You do not know what the remnant rejects or believes you probably have never took the time to listen to one if you have ever seen one. Catholicism is simply not God's church because it opposes the teachings of scripture. No, it opposes your "personal interpretations" of teachings of scripture. Except those who oppose The Catholic Church. You can "say" that you worship God, but if you reject His Priesthood as ordained by The Apostles successively, then you reject God. Remember, not everyone that calls Jesus Lord will be saved. Only those that do the will of His Father and if you reject God (by rejecting The Catholic Church), then how can you enter heaven? There is no "mystical" body of Christians secretly "scattered" (as you put it). That is "your" belief. That is not a "biblical" belief. But, what "is" a biblical belief is that The Catholic Church is The Church that Jesus Christ started. Peter is the first Pope (father of The Church) as chosen by Jesus Himself and historically proven. But again, I can't tell you how to believe. You have your own religion and you're free to make up your own rules... ...even if you borrow "our" God and Bible to base it on.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 24, 2009 19:21:26 GMT -5
You do not know what the remnant rejects or believes you probably have never took the time to listen to one if you have ever seen one. Catholicism is simply not God's church because it opposes the teachings of scripture. Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.
Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.
Galatians 3:28-29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 6:15-16 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.All who worship God in Spirit and in truth are part of one body regardless if we ever meet or not. It is possible for a catholic person to be a part of God's remnant, but I can confidently say by the fruit you produce and your denial of God's truth that you are not among us. By the way, when all those quotes you chose were made, there were NO denominations. All Christians belonged to The Universal (Catholic) Church. The same Church that today carries on the traditions of The Holy Eucharist, Confession to a Priest & the other Sacraments rejected by "Denominational" Christians. There is only one Church on earth that has the 4 marks as described by The Church Fathers who were taught by The Disciples of The Apostles... ...She is one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic. And that is The Catholic Church. No other Church meets those criteria (besides, no other Church was started by Saint Peter, The Apostle that loved Jesus above all others).
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Post by watchman on Feb 24, 2009 20:46:55 GMT -5
Except those who oppose The Catholic Church You have made the Catholic church your idol, you cannot get into Heaven worshiping anything other than God
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Post by Cepha on Feb 24, 2009 22:27:57 GMT -5
Except those who oppose The Catholic Church You have made the Catholic church your idol, you cannot get into Heaven worshiping anything other than God How (in your personal opinion) do I worship The Catholic Church? (Oh...I forgot...you don't do the 'answering questions' thing )
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Post by watchman on Feb 24, 2009 23:16:42 GMT -5
You have made the Catholic church your idol, you cannot get into Heaven worshiping anything other than God How (in your personal opinion) do I worship The Catholic Church? (Oh...I forgot...you don't do the 'answering questions' thing ) Read your post you have placed the Catholic church above scripture above God Himself, that is worship, it is idolatry anyone that reads through this, (outside of other indoctrinated catholics maybe) will be able to see that.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 24, 2009 23:18:44 GMT -5
God true universal Church is all true believers regardless of what denomination they are in. What biblical evidence do you have that proves that God's Church is multi-denominational? Here is my proof that Denominationalism (differing belief systems and doctrines that contradict Apostolic Traditional Teachings) is forbidden: 1 Corinthians 1:
Sectarianism Is Sin 10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 24, 2009 23:21:21 GMT -5
How (in your personal opinion) do I worship The Catholic Church? (Oh...I forgot...you don't do the 'answering questions' thing ) Read your post you have placed the Catholic church above scripture above God Himself, that is worship, it is idolatry anyone that reads through this, (outside of other indoctrinated catholics maybe) will be able to see that. Read your post? That's your proof? There is nothing in my post that puts The Church above God. It was God who placed The Church above The Bible (stating in His Word that it is The Catholic Church that is The Pillar of Truth...not The Bible). Quote me exactly...show me where I put The Church above God (don't forget, that God gave The Catholic Church all authority to teach in His name before you answer this question)...
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Post by watchman on Feb 25, 2009 13:09:20 GMT -5
Read your post you have placed the Catholic church above scripture above God Himself, that is worship, it is idolatry anyone that reads through this, (outside of other indoctrinated catholics maybe) will be able to see that. Read your post? That's your proof? There is nothing in my post that puts The Church above God. Yes that is my proof you have outed yourself as an idolater. You have put the Catholic church over God went as far as to say He could move with out you.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 25, 2009 17:57:51 GMT -5
Read your post? That's your proof? There is nothing in my post that puts The Church above God. Yes that is my proof you have outed yourself as an idolater. You have put the Catholic church over God went as far as to say He could move with out you. I still don't see it. The only reason that The Church is what it is is "because" OF God. It is God that makes The Church. I don't understand how loving what God has created because God created it is putting it above God. You still haven't explained yourself. You make an accusation, but provide no quotes to back it up (unless you call using your own words "quotes").
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 11:00:26 GMT -5
But the Catholic church opposes God's teaching, who will you believe God or the church
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 26, 2009 15:37:40 GMT -5
I truely believe the Catholic Church is Gods Church and we should not degrade it.
I also think you guys will never agree! lol
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Post by teresahrc on Feb 26, 2009 15:37:43 GMT -5
Watchman, the Bible is not God.
Catholics don't put anything above God.
The Bible and the Church are not mutually exclusive. It's not either/or, it's both.
Please, tell me how this statement makes sense in light of what you said earlier, You said that the only thing you need to know about the doctrine of salvation was in Romans
That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (or am I quoting the wrong verse?)
Anyway, I happen to agree more with this verse in Romans. I think that the MAJORITY of Christians in all denominations are SAVED because they do truly confess that "Jesus is Lord" and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead.
What, in your opinion, are all of the millions of Christians "that are actually lost" doing wrong? Is there some secret that we don't know about that you could enlighten us on?
Hum...but we don't "deny God's word" we obey it. Just because we take it literally and don't twist the interpretation to suit our own desires... Have you any example of the Catholic Church denying God's word?
We are able to defend ourselves.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 16:09:40 GMT -5
But the Catholic church opposes God's teaching, who will you believe God or the church You still haven't even given us one example of this. You tried to claim that Saint John taught Millernarialism, but never posted one scripture to prove it. Where is the proof? None of The Apostles ever taught Millernarialism (especially since it didn't exist until after the 16th Century). You say this, but you don't prove it. If it was so, it'd be easy to prove. If I were you, I would've given up on Millernarialism and moved on to another point instead of just repeating and "not" proving your allegations. (Hint: You "still" can try to do it if you have anything else)
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 16:29:26 GMT -5
First of all I have given scripture and 2ndly it is obvious I could post 20 unrefutable passage and you would still deny the truth. That si what you do deny God's truth.
In my many years of and many site of christian forums, I have never met anyone as unchristian as you (out of those that actually claim to be christian that is)
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 17:02:59 GMT -5
First of all I have given scripture and 2ndly it is obvious I could post 20 unrefutable passage and you would still deny the truth. That si what you do deny God's truth. In my many years of and many site of christian forums, I have never met anyone as unchristian as you (out of those that actually claim to be christian that is) Is this targeted at me? What unrefutable passages are you talking about? John's vision? That's not a doctrine. We want the Doctrinal Teaching that justifies a Christian being able to accept this as a Doctrine of The Church (not the opinion of one person). A "vision" a Doctrine does not make. Show me where John or any other Apostle explain Millernarialism the way it's believed to day by Millernarians.
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