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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 23:50:11 GMT -5
I never denied that the Father draws men to Christ. You just said that "No one can know God at all unless they know Jesus." That does not equate to the Father is not the one who draws people. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 23:51:29 GMT -5
There is nothing unbiblical about my ''interpretation'' I believe it as it is written. That the righteous are resurrected first, and the un just will be resurrected 1,000 years later. Revelation 204And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 2 question #1 Is what I said I believe not exactly what this passage say. #2 Is the Bible literal or not? Your personal belief that a vision is to automatically be interpreted as a doctrine is unbiblical. Show me where in The Bible it says that you're supposed to take this vision as a doctrinal teaching? You call it doctrine or what ever you want to call it the real question is do you believe the bible or not. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 26, 2009 23:53:31 GMT -5
Watchman, let's begin with this quote, shall we? "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). Here is the entire quote: " See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). Now, we know for a fact that only The Catholic Church has that religious heirchy that you so criticize (bishops, deacons, The Eucharist, etc...). These are uniquely Catholic beliefs that no other Christian church adheres to. Do you agree or disagree that only The Catholic Church practices these things that are stated 1900 years ago by this Church Father? How can satan fool anyone unless he mixes truth in with lies, unless it is all true I aint buying into it. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 23:58:16 GMT -5
Now, let us reflect on "who" this student of Saint John is... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_AntiochSt. Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch after Saint Peter and St. Evodius, who died around AD 67. Eusebius[2] records that St. Ignatius succeeded St. Evodius. Making his apostolic succession even more immediate, Theodoret (Dial. Immutab., I, iv, 33a) reported that Peter himself appointed Ignatius to the see of Antioch.
Besides his Latin name, Ignatius, he also called himself Theophorus ("God Bearer"), and tradition says he was one of the children Jesus took in His arms and blessed. St. Ignatius may have been a disciple of the Apostle John.[3]
St. Ignatius is one of the Apostolic Fathers (the earliest authoritative group of the Church Fathers). He based his authority on being a bishop of the Church, living his life in the imitation of Christ. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 26, 2009 23:59:23 GMT -5
How can satan fool anyone unless he mixes truth in with lies, unless it is all true I aint buying into it. You seemed to have missed the questions (or straight out avoided them): Now, we know for a fact that only The Catholic Church has that religious heirchy that you so criticize (bishops, deacons, The Eucharist, etc...). These are uniquely Catholic beliefs that no other Christian church adheres to. Do you agree or disagree that only The Catholic Church practices these things that are stated 1900 years ago by this Church Father?  |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 0:00:46 GMT -5
You just said that "No one can know God at all unless they know Jesus." That does not equate to the Father is not the one who draws people. You said that they can't even "know" God unless they know Jesus, right? How can they believe "in" someone they don't even know since it is that Someone Who it is that brings a person to Christ? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 0:02:02 GMT -5
You call it doctrine or what ever you want to call it the real question is do you believe the bible or not. That's all good, well and fine, but before you even try to skip to another question, how's about you answer this one first? Show me where in The Bible it says that you're supposed to take this vision as a doctrinal teaching? |
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Post by watchman on Feb 27, 2009 0:02:49 GMT -5
How can satan fool anyone unless he mixes truth in with lies, unless it is all true I aint buying into it. You seemed to have missed the questions (or straight out avoided them): Now, we know for a fact that only The Catholic Church has that religious heirchy that you so criticize (bishops, deacons, The Eucharist, etc...). These are uniquely Catholic beliefs that no other Christian church adheres to. Do you agree or disagree that only The Catholic Church practices these things that are stated 1900 years ago by this Church Father? No, I do not agree that only the catholic church does these things, and to be honest I would make any difference to me if they were, because they does not correct where they are wrong. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 27, 2009 0:04:17 GMT -5
That does not equate to the Father is not the one who draws people. You said that they can't even "know" God unless they know Jesus, right? How can they believe "in" someone they don't even know since it is that Someone Who it is that brings a person to Christ? To complicated for you thats ok at least this time you admitted it was over your head instead of arguing a false issue. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 27, 2009 0:07:37 GMT -5
You call it doctrine or what ever you want to call it the real question is do you believe the bible or not. That's all good, well and fine, but before you even try to skip to another question, how's about you answer this one first? Show me where in The Bible it says that you're supposed to take this vision as a doctrinal teaching?Do you believe that this is a false prophesy? and if not I really do not know what your argument in accepting it as truth is? You either believe that this is from God and will happen or that John had a false vision and the church canonized his false prophesy |
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Post by watchman on Feb 27, 2009 0:11:54 GMT -5
You call it doctrine or what ever you want to call it the real question is do you believe the bible or not. That's all good, well and fine, but before you even try to skip to another question, how's about you answer this one first? Show me where in The Bible it says that you're supposed to take this vision as a doctrinal teaching?
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.Paul say ALL scripture profitable for doctrine. Is Revelation 20 not scripture? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 0:12:08 GMT -5
No, I do not agree that only the catholic church does these things, and to be honest I would make any difference to me if they were, because they does not correct where they are wrong. Ok then, show me another church today that meets all these descriptions that Saint Ignatius (student of Saint John) stated? (If you can't, then there is no doubt that the Church that is called The Catholic Church and that does all these same exact things stated by a student of the original Twelve Apostles who walked with Christ is "The" Church spoken of...unless that Church Ignatius spoke about has dissappeared?) |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 0:14:43 GMT -5
That's all good, well and fine, but before you even try to skip to another question, how's about you answer this one first? Show me where in The Bible it says that you're supposed to take this vision as a doctrinal teaching?
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.Paul say ALL scripture profitable for doctrine. Is Revelation 20 not scripture? Do you understand what "profitable" for doctrine means? That means that it can be used to "contribute" to doctrine, not that all scripture literally "is" doctrine. A scripture can be used to add to doctrine (which is what profitable means) and a doctrine can benefit from it's use, but this doesn't automatically equate to it meaning that all scripture "is" doctrine. The Devil speaks and says false things in Scripture...are his words automatically doctrine if "all scripture" as you imply is to be taken as doctrinal? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 0:16:09 GMT -5
You said that they can't even "know" God unless they know Jesus, right? How can they believe "in" someone they don't even know since it is that Someone Who it is that brings a person to Christ? To complicated for you thats ok at least this time you admitted it was over your head instead of arguing a false issue. Let "me" be the judge of that...now, could you actually answer this question instead of "not" answering it? How can they believe "in" someone they don't even know since it is that Someone Who it is that brings a person to Christ? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 0:20:35 GMT -5
Do you believe that this is a false prophesy? and if not I really do not know what your argument in accepting it as truth is? You either believe that this is from God and will happen or that John had a false vision and the church canonized his false prophesy Wether or not it is a false or true prophesy is not what we're talking about...come on now...focus on the question asked of you and don't supply answers to questions never tendered: Show me where in The Bible it says that you're supposed to take this vision as a doctrinal teaching?Show me? Come on! Post the doctrine that speaks about this vision that justifies it being taken as doctrine (not the prophecy itself). (And again, list all The Apostles who teach this as doctrine...we already know that John had the vision, but who taught it as doctrine?) |
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Post by watchman on Feb 27, 2009 10:43:31 GMT -5
Do you believe that this is a false prophesy? and if not I really do not know what your argument in accepting it as truth is? Actually it is exactly what we are talking about. If you believe that the bible is inerrant then this must be a true prophesy and the Millennium must be real and literal, if the bible is not inerrant, and this is a false prophesy, then and only then can you side with the Roman Catholic Church in saying that the Millennium will never actually occur. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 27, 2009 10:45:37 GMT -5
To complicated for you thats ok at least this time you admitted it was over your head instead of arguing a false issue. Let "me" be the judge of that...now, could you actually answer this question instead of "not" answering it? How can they believe "in" someone they don't even know since it is that Someone Who it is that brings a person to Christ?Faith in Christ is what saves, and we cannot know God at all until we know Christ, yet it is the Father that draws men. Can your feeble mind comprehend that. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 15:00:10 GMT -5
Do you believe that this is a false prophesy? and if not I really do not know what your argument in accepting it as truth is? Actually it is exactly what we are talking about. If you believe that the bible is inerrant then this must be a true prophesy and the Millennium must be real and literal, if the bible is not inerrant, and this is a false prophesy, then and only then can you side with the Roman Catholic Church in saying that the Millennium will never actually occur. According to you then, Satan was telling the truth when he deceived Eve then, right (that is, if everything in it is absolutely truth)? And, again...no one ever said that the millenium will never occur...just that it's not taught in the bible. Just like The Holy Trinity or Salvation or The Bible isn't in the bible. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 15:05:26 GMT -5
Let "me" be the judge of that...now, could you actually answer this question instead of "not" answering it? How can they believe "in" someone they don't even know since it is that Someone Who it is that brings a person to Christ?Faith in Christ is what saves, and we cannot know God at all until we know Christ, yet it is the Father that draws men. Can your feeble mind comprehend that. But The Bible contradict you...it states that one is brought to Jesus Christ "through" God, therefore, they must know God before they can come to Christ. You are completely backwards. You even contradict Jesus. You are putting the horse before the cart. Show me where in The Bible it states that it is "faith" that saves and not grace? In order for you to have that faith, you must first have the grace that God grants you. No one comes to The Son unless The Father brings them to Him...you are first graced and "then" you get faith. It is God's grace that saves you (not faith). Faith is only one of the many works needed as part of salvation, but it is not "the" work because just like Romans 2 says, even those who "don't" believe in God are saved by how they live their lives. Tell me the truth...have you actually read the Bible? I think it's time that we discuss Romans 2 (remember Romans 2? The Chapter I told you to read that you didn't respond to?) |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 27, 2009 15:06:54 GMT -5
Do you believe that this is a false prophesy? and if not I really do not know what your argument in accepting it as truth is? You either believe that this is from God and will happen or that John had a false vision and the church canonized his false prophesy Wether or not it is a false or true prophesy is not what we're talking about...come on now...focus on the question asked of you and don't supply answers to questions never tendered: Show me where in The Bible it says that you're supposed to take this vision as a doctrinal teaching?Show me? Come on! Post the doctrine that speaks about this vision that justifies it being taken as doctrine (not the prophecy itself). (And again, list all The Apostles who teach this as doctrine...we already know that John had the vision, but who taught it as doctrine?) Watchman? |
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