|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 16, 2009 13:15:33 GMT -5
Then this is not a debate, it is just a discussion. That's fine.
No, I don't believe that protestants deleted the apocrypha just because of purgatory. I'm not sure why they deleted it, I just know that they did.
It's really important for everyone that truly believes that God has given us certain inspired texts (the Scriptures) to know which books are included and why.
I find it quite interesting that non-Catholic Bibles do not have the apocrypha, yet they do have some "uncertain" passages that are verified only by the authority of the Catholic Church. (for example, the story of "the woman caught in adultery" in John 8--this story is not found in the earliest Greek manuscripts)
You are probably wondering what that has to do with purgatory.
Well, as I said before, we must first lay the foundation before we build a house. Though the doctrine of purgatory is not(to some) explicit in scripture, that doesn't mean it isn't true. All truth is God's truth, regardless of where it is found. Everything in scripture is true, but that doesn't mean everything outside of scripture is false. Scripture doesn't say that St. Thomas preached the gospel in India, or that Christians were severely persecuted by Diocletian in the early 4th century, but that doesn't make them untrue. Scripture doesn't teach specifically on quite a number of issues, but that doesn't mean we can't know God's will on those issues.
God has given Christians a pillar and foundation for knowing truth, and that is the Church. As soon as people deny that authority, they also deny the fruit of that authority, which includes the Holy Bible.
It is amazingly obvious that the point in history at which the tangled web of Christian divisions began (30,000 or so denominations) was when people started following the traditions of men over the God-given authority of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
So, if you want to believe that ONLY what is written in scripture is true, that is your choice and I probably couldn't "prove" purgatory, the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, or many other doctrines that have been defined by the Catholic Church.
But that doesn' t mean they aren't true.
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 16, 2009 13:57:13 GMT -5
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
(1 Corinthians)
Let's look at this verse, watchman.
First, we see that this verse is speaking of what happens after our death. "The Day" is a reference to Judgement Day, whether our own personal judgement (most likely this verse is referring to such judgement) or the Final Judgement.
The verse says that each man's "work" will be tested by fire.
If the person has attempted to build something on the foundation (the foundation as mentioned, is Jesus) their work is tested. Those who have not even built anything are not mentioned here, so for now we won't talk about those who do not know Jesus at all.
The last verse is significant-- "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames"
How can someone "suffer loss" but yet "be saved"? Clearly, this is after death, for we are not judged until after death--"the Day".
So this "escaping through the flames" and suffering "loss" is the what the Catholic Church calls "Purgatory". Everything that is not built on Christ in our lives is burned away. Whether that is physical fire or not makes no difference. The fact is that, even with this verse alone, the doctrine of purgatory is quite explicit in Scripture.
This one verse proves it quite well.
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Apr 16, 2009 14:48:41 GMT -5
Actually it doesn't it is our work that were not done with a pure heart towards God that will be burned away, that in no way indicates that there is a separate place other than heaven or hell were the righteous go to be ''purified''.
(Side note, the deity of Christ is easily proven via scripture)
|
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 16, 2009 17:43:30 GMT -5
I never said purgatory was a "separate place". I have continued to define purgatory as a process.
Yes, works not from a pure heart will be burned away, but works come from within ourselves. "Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" How could someone not be grieved, indeed suffer tremendously, to realize that they had not been serving the Lord?
Look at the verse. It says they will be saved "as one escaping through the flames". It doesn't say that only their "works" will pass through the flames, but they themselves.
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Apr 16, 2009 19:29:17 GMT -5
I never said purgatory was a "separate place". I have continued to define purgatory as a process. Yes, works not from a pure heart will be burned away, but works come from within ourselves. "Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" How could someone not be grieved, indeed suffer tremendously, to realize that they had not been serving the Lord? Look at the verse. It says they will be saved "as one escaping through the flames". It doesn't say that only their "works" will pass through the flames, but they themselves. teresa So let me ask you this....Do you believe this ''process'' can take place while we are living, or do you think it is an after life experience? |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 17, 2009 12:51:09 GMT -5
This verse is clearly speaking about after our physical death.
But definitely, our experiences in this life (esp. suffering) unite us more with Christ in His sufferings. The more we live for Him(and die with Him), the more our hearts are purified by faith.
peace
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Apr 17, 2009 13:58:43 GMT -5
This verse is clearly speaking about after our physical death. But definitely, our experiences in this life (esp. suffering) unite us more with Christ in His sufferings. The more we live for Him(and die with Him), the more our hearts are purified by faith. peace teresa Some in the protestant faiths call this the baptism of fire. I disagree with them about the baptism of fire is. Do you think the baptism of fire is a reference to purgatory? |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 18, 2009 13:13:33 GMT -5
Well, if you are talking about what St. John the Baptist said about Jesus " He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire" (not sure if I got that exactly right)
I'm not sure what the "some in the protestant faiths" are talking about, but I'm pretty sure that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the same thing as the "baptism of fire" that St. John talked about. After all, didn't the Holy Spirit fall on the disciple as "tongues of fire"? It seems to be the same thing, not 2 different things. So, no I don't think that "baptism of fire" is the same as purgatory, I think "baptism of fire" could just be another way to say "baptism in the Holy Spirit".
There is a similarity however, because if you read in the book of Acts (and also if you look at the lives of believers before and after their own "baptism in the Holy Spirit" there is always a purging that happens, and often the person even though they already loved Jesus, has a purer heart afterwards.
Since the Bible often describes God as "a consuming fire"(Hebrews 12) it is also not surprising that a close encounter with a Holy God always "burns" away the evil in our hearts.
The difference between the "saved" and the "unsaved" is that on the day of Judgement, the saved will pass through the fire, and the unsaved will be consumed by it.
But as long as we bear at least some fruit, Jesus prunes us to make us even more fruitful. Those with no fruit at all will be cast into the flames.
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Apr 18, 2009 20:01:40 GMT -5
There are two thoughts within protestantism #1 What you believe that the baptism of fire is the same as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. #2 That the baptism of fire is the purifying of the believer through trials and tribulations. Both are false the baptism of fire is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the 2nd coming of Christ. You can continue with your description of purgatory if you would like but I am unconvinced and well enough read when it come to the N.T. to know that you will not convince me. So if you like I could start a new thread and show you that the baptism of fire is the fiery destruction of the wicked at the 2nd coming. Either way, or neither is fine by me.  |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 18, 2009 21:31:08 GMT -5
Maybe it is "the fiery destruction of the wicked at the 2nd coming"? I don't really want to argue about that. You're probably right. Though generally when the Bible talks about "baptism" it is a redemptive word and used only for people who are turning to God and being saved. That doesn't apply to the wicked, but yes, they will be destroyed by fire, as the Bible says.
Anyway, I don't base my beliefs on just cutting and pasting Bible verses. That can never prove anything really.
I gave you at least one really significant verse concerning purgatory, It doesn't "prove" it, but it does show that such a belief does not contradict scripture.
Don't you also have beliefs, very strong beliefs that are only found in one verse in the Bible? Like your belief in a literal Millennial reign of Christ? So how can you say you won't be convinced because you are "well read", if some of your beliefs are only found in one verse, how can you convince others of your one-verse beliefs if you don't believe their one-verse beliefs? Actually, there are many more verses that support Purgatory, but I haven't had the chance to talk about them all.
The difference between you trying to prove your "one verse" beliefs and me trying to prove mine is that I am trying to prove not what I teach but what the Church has always taught. I'm not trying to make up doctrines on my own authority, but am trying to explain the doctrines that the Church has handed down to us. The Church is the "Pillar and Foundation of Truth".
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by watchman on Apr 19, 2009 12:58:04 GMT -5
There is more than one verse that describes the Millennium, just one verse that tells you exactly how long it is. Further more the one verse that tells us how long the Millennium is could not be more clear, and cannot be denied. I do not know of any such verse in the whole of scripture that plainly states that purgatory exist. If you can give i, I will accept it. The passage in 1st Corinthians is debatable and has not convinced me.
|
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 19, 2009 13:11:15 GMT -5
Well, the verse in Rev. about the Millennium is definitely debatable since it is a book about visions and prophecy.
Anyway, the important thing to repeat is that I'm not making up my own doctrine, but telling you what the Church teaches. The Church has authority to teach and preach and that authority is given by Jesus. Yes, some doctrines are not plainly stated in scripture, such as "Soon, after the Apostles have died, there will be gathered a collection of their writings that will be known as the New Testament and the Church will decide by the Holy Spirit which books will be in it" No, but we do accept that by faith.
There is not a verse that plainly states the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, but I'm totally convinced because the Church has always taught it.
teresa
|
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 20, 2009 16:24:00 GMT -5
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. The foundation is Jesus. You can't use straw for the foundation because the foundation is Jesus. Anyway, why do you think that the Judgement will be only for unbelievers? 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5) And what do you reckon this means: If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved— No matter how you try to explain it, it clearly shows that a believer could somehow "suffer" or "suffer loss" after they die, yet be saved. teresa |
|
|
|
Post by teresahrc on Apr 20, 2009 18:28:27 GMT -5
I'm not saying they will be burned either. But suffering is suffering.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cepha on Apr 21, 2009 8:11:28 GMT -5
ADMINISTRATOR'S NOTE:
I removed all posts from Alfie and any referring to Alfie's posts since this is a debate between two parties. Alfie, sorry I had to do that. But if you want, you can post your thoughts in a new thread. This is a "debate" between T and W.
If I've left anything behind that needs to be deleted also, let me know and I'll delete it.
Thanks.
|
|
