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Post by Cepha on Apr 16, 2009 15:14:48 GMT -5
Actually as scripture itself says there is no (or at least should not be) any personal interpretation. What we should all do is (as emily alluded to) allow scripture to interpret itself.  Scripture intepreting scripture? But who decides which scriptures to use? The reader? Then, doesn't the reader choosing which scriptures to accept and which to not accept make it a personal choice? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 16, 2009 15:17:35 GMT -5
I agree. That's one of the main reasons I became Catholic. And a good point Emily made...that's how we got all the Heretical Sects pre-16th Century. They refused to accept Church teachings and created their own beliefs (Jesus was married, Jesus had children, Jesus and Mary Magdalene were together, etc...). |
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Post by watchman on Apr 16, 2009 15:18:09 GMT -5
As long as you believe the Bible as it is written you should be pretty theologically sound. the problem is when belief turns into interpret. and when people with preconceived beliefs try and force scripture to fit their opinions. What we all should do is simply believe what the scripture says and not try to force our opinions into them.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 16, 2009 15:23:54 GMT -5
So, you mean that The Bible means that Jesus said that only men can get to The Father and not women? According to Gal 3 about men and women in Christ, that would be an untrue statement. So either Jesus lied or Paul added on to what Jesus said, right? Here's the simplest way to put it. When Jesus said man, He could've included all mankind, right? It's the most obvious reason. But, one wouldn't know that without discernment (what you call investigation). But, discernment is extra-Biblical. It's going outside of Bible teachings to support one's belief. The fact is, Jesus never said that women would get to The Father. This is a true statement that no one can deny. Does it mean that we have to accept that teaching then? That no woman has a chance to make it to The Father? If one was a Bible literalist, then yes. Because in order to believe that women have access to The Father, they have to go outside of Jesus and go to Paul. Meaning, that there is a need for more than just Jesus to learn about Jesus. One needs The Bible, a Priest (Paul is a Priest) and The Church (that Paul served under). So, The Bible alone is not sufficient to teach, but requires teachers (hence the need for Paul being used to prove a point that doesn't exist in Scripture...that Jesus taught that women too can have access to The Father).  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 16, 2009 15:26:41 GMT -5
As long as you believe the Bible as it is written you should be pretty theologically sound. the problem is when belief turns into interpret. and when people with preconceived beliefs try and force scripture to fit their opinions. What we all should do is simply believe what the scripture says and not try to force our opinions into them. Agreed. It's what I call people bending scripture to their mind instead of bending their minds to the scriptures. Fact is, to read the Bible without the guidance of The Holy Spirit (an extra-Biblical source) is personal interpretation. For example, when I've read scripture just to prove people wrong, it was "work". But when I've done it to defend a Christian Doctrine, it was "presented to me". I instantly knew where to go to find what I needed to find out. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 16, 2009 17:14:07 GMT -5
I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's why God established The Church to guide us (as she is guided by The Holy Spirit...Book of Acts). See, when we have an institution guided by The Holy Spirit guiding us, then there is no way that we can personally interpret The Bible. If scripture was enough, then Jesus wouldn't have needed The Apostles to spread the Gospels. All you'd have to do is to leave Bibles around and everybody would be saved because they would all read the same things and all believe in it the same exact way. But then, that would be God forcing His will upon us and God doesn't do that. He allows us to come to Him of our own accord. Do you agree? Or disagree? The Apostles spread the Gospel was necessary because the Bible wasn't written yet. It is still necessary because not everyone reads the BIbles laying around. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 16, 2009 17:14:48 GMT -5
In other words, there's no guarantee that one scripture is enough to convey a meaning/teaching to you? That some require support from other scriptures? Sometimes, sometimes not. That's why the Bible says to rightly divide It. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 16, 2009 17:16:09 GMT -5
It's like having a textbook for a class. Something doesn't make sense in chapter 5...check chapters 1-4 and 6-15.
Except it's different becuase the BIble will have all the answers...a textbook written by a person may not. So maybe not a good example, but I try.
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 16, 2009 18:10:28 GMT -5
But the BIble doesn't have all the answers. It will lead us to the One that does have all the answers--God.
The Bible isn't "the way, the truth, and the life". Jesus is.
I understand what you are saying Emily, but I'm pretty sure that most sincere Christian Protestants believe the same thing--that the Bible explains itself. But that can't possibly be true because Truth cannot contradict itself. Why are there so many denominations and so many different beliefs? Some Christians disagree on really important issues and both claim that their teachings come from the Bible. Which denomination teaches the full truth? Which one has the most error? How would you know, and how would you "prove" such a thing using the Bible?
Doesn't this theory(that the Bible explains itself) lead only to divisions, factions and confusion?
But the Original Church (Which is One--not a denomination) promotes unity and peace.
How can it be that Christians everywhere--until the 16th century--did not believe in "self interpreting" Bibles, or "Bible alone"? Did Jesus let the entire Church be deceived for so long, only until some "reformers" came along, (deleting some of the books of the Bible) and tell everyone to forget what the Church had taught and "decide for yourself"? Would God really let all Christians be deceived for 1500 years?
No, of course not. Jesus said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church.
teresa
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 16, 2009 18:31:02 GMT -5
Teresa- The Bible has everything in it that God wants us to know.
There are so many churches because people privately interpret the Bible.
Denominations, or individual churches, who teach the truth teach what the Bible says.
And to answer your questions about the Catholic church....yes.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 16, 2009 19:20:29 GMT -5
But of all the different churches preaching their beliefs....you think yours is the True church em?
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Post by watchman on Apr 16, 2009 19:34:46 GMT -5
But of all the different churches preaching their beliefs....you think yours is the True church em? Do you think your church is the true church, CC? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 16, 2009 19:56:19 GMT -5
But of all the different churches preaching their beliefs....you think yours is the True church em? Any church that believes, teaches, and preaches what the Bible says is a True church. Which includes mine, yes. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 17, 2009 13:12:44 GMT -5
Which Bible? The Protestant Bible has had entire books deleted.
I have no doubt that most Protestants are real, true Christians. But how can relativism be "True"? What I mean is that most Churches do claim that they "believe, teach and preach what the Bible says" but why do they contradict each other so much? One church teaches "Once saved always saved" and they have many Bible verses to "prove" it. Another church teaches that one may lose their salvation, with many other verses to prove their teaching. There are different views on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Baptism, church structure (deacons, elders etc) and the list goes on and on.
What it seems like most people are saying is "any church that teaches the Bible the way I interpret it is a true church". Even then, many people find a church that they mostly agree with, but still disagree with certain doctrines, or certain "sermons" preached in their church. There is no way to measure or compare who is correct except for one's own opinion, which of course is never wrong (in one's own mind at least).
Is it God's will for churches to be so divided? Not at all.
So here is a (non-rhetorical) question now,
If the standard of measuring a "true church" is that it "believes, teaches, and preaches what the Bible says" then Emily could you please make a list of as many churches you can find that fit into this category? If some are "true" and some are not, then it should be something that can be found out, measured, studied and researched etc. Most churches have web sites that post their beliefs. I'm not asking you to research all of them, but maybe just a few, maybe even the first few that pop into your mind. (or maybe look in the yellow pages of your phone book for ideas) If you don't want to, that's fine, I'm not trying to "win" a debate or anything, I just think that it would be really beneficial to learn what different churches teach. Personally, I have already done such research. I used to have a book that was a "handbook of denominations". I also did research on the internet.
Truth is not subjective or something hazy that cannot be found. Truth doesn't contradict itself. So, I challenge you, Emily to make a list of churches that you believe teach and preach what the Bible says.
peace
teresa
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16 KJV
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Post by watchman on Apr 17, 2009 14:02:10 GMT -5
Teresa what if a church teaches the truth of the gospel but only uses the New Testament. would that make them not false unbelieving Church?
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 17, 2009 14:36:36 GMT -5
Challenge declined. I am not particularly interested in what other churches teach...and would, IMO, be a complete waste of time to research them on the internet...which I would have to do because each church within a particular denomination is different. I am happy with my church, we read and study out of the BIble every Sunday and Wednesday, we are active in Discipleship, outreach programs, supporting and sending missionaries, etc. To make a list of True churches, and by default a list of False ones, would be a complete waste of my time. If a church teaches what the Bible says they are a good church, if not...that is between them and God to examine their ways.
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Post by watchman on Apr 17, 2009 16:45:13 GMT -5
Truth is not subjective or something hazy that cannot be found. Truth doesn't contradict itself. So, I challenge you, Emily to make a list of churches that you believe teach and preach what the Bible says. peace teresa There are true believers in almost every denomination, and false believers in every single denomination, as well as true and false believers within Catholicism. The percentage of people setting in churches every Sunday claiming Christ as their savior that are actually saved and on their way to heaven is fairly small. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 17, 2009 19:01:15 GMT -5
But of all the different churches preaching their beliefs....you think yours is the True church em? Do you think your church is the true church, CC? Yes, i think the Catholic Church is the one true Church. That does not mean that i dont think other people in denominational churches are not Christian though. I think we are all trying to get to the same place and meet the same person and are doing the best we know how to do it. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 17, 2009 19:47:27 GMT -5
I personally question any religious organization that claims they alone have the corner on truth. If I were to name the others that make this claim you and I would both agree they are all cults. Such as JWs, Mormons, and Church if Christ ect.... That doesn't give you pause at all when you here Catholics claiming they and they alone a hold of the truth?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 17, 2009 23:14:27 GMT -5
well, i can tell you right now that Catholics are not a part of a cult. That is ludicris! Cults have total control over their members and so much more.
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