Mary is our Mother

[I.M.Apologetics]

Mary is our Mother:
1. Revelation speaks of the Dragon persecuting the Woman (who is Israel, the Church, and Mary), and when she is given the wings of the Great Eagle, St. John tells us that the Dragon "went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus."

2. On the Cross Jesus gives Mary to His beloved disciple, and the disciple "took her into his home." Jesus says, "John [or son], behold your mother", and countless of commentators say that John represents the Church.

3. Proverbs 31:28, which I assume you read since I requested it twice, says
"Her children rise up and call her blessed", which perfectly goes with Mary's "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48), showing that we are that generation that "rise up and call her blessed"

[Cepha]

Revelations 12:17 states clearly that anyone who calls themselves a Christian is brought into a relationship with Mary as mother.

If Jesus becomes their Brother with a common Father, what does that make His Mother by default?

Anyway, The Holy Bible literally states that the woman who gave birth to Jesus is the mother of all His followers.

Since The Word of God says it, so be it.

I agree with The Word of God.

[I.M.Apologetics]

It seems they do too, there are no objections!

[Cepha]

imapologetics said:

It seems they do too, there are no objections!

Can't argue with Da' Truth.

;D

[kingjamesbond]

Jesus did not make such a big fuss about Mary.

It was His very own mother and He did not make her out to be anything special.

Think about it.

Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.

When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

His family thought that He was out of His mind.

Lets read a little further and see who is included in the family that went to take charge of Him;

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

His family that thought He was out of His mind had now come to take charge of Him. His mother was included.

What does He say about His mother, Mary?

Does He say people should fall down at her feet and call her mother of all Christians? Highly favored is she?

Does He claim people should regard her special in any way?

He does not place her in any sort of favor zone at all!

Look at exactly what He says;

"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

He never tells anyone to hold some special respect and glory for Mary.

He actually calls others His brothers, sisters, and mothers.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So much for human beings placing Mary so high.

KJB

[Cepha]

kingjamesbond said:

Jesus did not make such a big fuss about Mary.

It was His very own mother and He did not make her out to be anything special.

Think about it.

Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.

When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

His family thought that He was out of His mind.

Lets read a little further and see who is included in the family that went to take charge of Him;

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

His family that thought He was out of His mind had now come to take charge of Him. His mother was included.

What does He say about His mother, Mary?

Does He say people should fall down at her feet and call her mother of all Christians? Highly favored is she?

Does He claim people should regard her special in any way?

He does not place her in any sort of favor zone at all!

Look at exactly what He says;

"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

He never tells anyone to hold some special respect and glory for Mary.

He actually calls others His brothers, sisters, and mothers.

So much for human beings placing Mary so high.

KJB

"Honor thy mother"

Revelation 12 states that Mary is the mother of all Christian believers.

Yep...soooooo much for us placing her so high.

Jesus loved her. His love was a perfect love for her.

I would say, Jesus loved His own mother more than any of us could love our own mothers...and you belittle this why?

Because he didn't scream it from the mountain tops?

What you fail to recognize in your example (and I love to tear that one apart everytime it's brought up!) is that Jesus did praise His mother!

He stated that anyone who obeyed Him like she does is incorporated into His family like she is! Anyone who listens to Him and does His will is His family! Jusssssst like Revelation 12:17 says!

He used Mary as the ultimate example of a Christian follower.

Why couldn't you see that? Because your heart is closed to loving her as Jesus loved her. Remember, it was Jesus who stated that the proof that you are a Christian is by loving each other as He loved us?

How did Jesus love His mother? As a "mother". If we obeyed His wish, then we'd love her as He loved her....as a "mother".

Protestantism has always, since it's inception, been about exclusion while Christ and His Church has always been about "inclusion". This is another example of Protestants belittling Jesus' mother.

How can you say that He didn't place her in any special place when He is The Law and His Law literally states that she is to be honored?

Question: Do "you" call her blessed as The Word of God states all generations shall call her?

Do you "honor" Mary?

If we were to treat a box of acacia wood (The Ark) with such reverance for containing the "Word of God", how much better are we to treat the human being that contributed all the flesh and bone and blood that Jesus shed?

What's worth more reverance? An inaminate object? Or a living breathing human being from which God's own Son was formed?

I hope you answer all these questions and don't miss one.

Jesus never talked about donating blood, but that is considered to be a lifesaving gift. Jesus never talked about a lot of things in The Bible. To exclude them from Christianity as worthy of belief because their not said in The Bible would also delete belief in The Trinity or The Rapture or in donating blood to save lives. Not all that Jesus said is recorded on paper in a book.

;D

She was the first Christian, the first Beliver, the first defender of Christ, the only human being to have been with Jesus from before His birth, through His life and Passion & Crucifixtion and after His death and ressurection. She is the example of perfect Christianity never failing Jesus.

I love the part when she interceded on behalf of the guests at the wedding of Cana and when Jesus questioned His own mother, what did she do? She didn't respond to Him! She just turned to stewards and told them "Do what He tells you."

Did Jesus protest? Nope! Why? Because even Jesus has to (HAS TO) obey the very same law that He is and even Jesus is subject to His own mother! So without anymore delay, Jesus did what He was supposed to do.

No matter what, even Jesus obeyed His own mother because if He didn't, He would be breaking one of His Father's own commandments and Him being perfect, that was impossible for Jesus to dishonor His own mother.

Take Mary's advice..."Do what He tells you."

Honor His mother because once you are God's Son and Jesus becomes your brother by default, His mother becomes your mother by default. It's a package deal.

PS:
God made a HUGE deal about Mary. In case you forgot, not only did God choose her to bring forth His Son, but He continually protected her with His Angels. I'd say it's a pretty big deal when God sends Angels to protect you and to talk to you on His behalf.

If Jesus loves you, it's a big deal. Imagine how much of a bigger deal it was for Him to love His mother?

Finally, remember that Mary is called by The Word of God as blessed "among" all women. She is the highest form of woman formed by God in Saint Ann's (Mary's mother's) womb. She is separated from women in general in Scripture. This is a distinction given only to The Mother of Jesus Christ. No other woman is called "blessed" among women. Only Mary.

[kingjamesbond]

"Honor thy mother"

Revelation 12 states that Mary is the mother of all Christian believers.

Yep...soooooo much for us placing her so high.

Jesus loved her. His love was a perfect love for her.

Revelation 12 does not state that Mary is the mother of all Christians.

Jesus loved her. His love was a perfect love for her.

I would say, Jesus loved His own mother more than any of us could love our own mothers...and you belittle this why?

Because he didn't scream it from the mountain tops?

Um....I am sure He did love her. I had never insinuated that He did not love her. The text I provided shows that Mary was among the group (His family) that thought He was out of His mind and had come to take charge of Him.

When He was told that His mother and brothers were outside, he merely made a claim. He did not give Mary or His brothers any special honor or attention at all. The text claims;

He looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

No special honor there.

What you fail to recognize in your example (and I love to tear that one apart everytime it's brought up!) is that Jesus did praise His mother!

I am not sure which example that was?

He stated that anyone who obeyed Him like she does is incorporated into His family like she is! Anyone who listens to Him and does His will is His family! Jusssssst like Revelation 12:17 says!

He used Mary as the ultimate example of a Christian follower.

I dont see where you see all these things in Rev 12?

These are signs that are spoken of.

Can you show us all where Mary was given the two wings of a great eagle and flew into the desert?

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Why couldn't you see that? Because your heart is closed to loving her as Jesus loved her. Remember, it was Jesus who stated that the proof that you are a Christian is by loving each other as He loved us?

How did Jesus love His mother? As a "mother". If we obeyed His wish, then we'd love her as He loved her....as a "mother".

Is there a reason it is implied that I dont love Mary?

Roman Catholics have turned Mary more into a person they worship.

Maybe we would all do better at showing our love with our actions to those mothers that are still on this earth?

There are mothers right now all around us that could use love.

Protestantism has always, since it's inception, been about exclusion while Christ and His Church has always been about "inclusion". This is another example of Protestants belittling Jesus' mother.

How can you say that He didn't place her in any special place when He is The Law and His Law literally states that she is to be honored?

I am not belittling His mother. I bet she was a fine mother.

I will not say she was not a fine mother. How is that belittling?

I also agree she was blessed. I will even say she was blessed.

"Mary was blessed".

Peter was blessed. Paul was blessed. I have been blessed. Many people have been blessed.

Question: Do "you" call her blessed as The Word of God states all generations shall call her?

Do you "honor" Mary?

With the honor that is due a mother.....a woman.....not a god.

If we were to treat a box of acacia wood (The Ark) with such reverance for containing the "Word of God", how much better are we to treat the human being that contributed all the flesh and bone and blood that Jesus shed?

We dont treat a box of acacia wood....(unless of course you have the ark and are hiding it from us all).........LOL

What's worth more reverance? An inaminate object? Or a living breathing human being from which God's own Son was formed?

I hope you answer all these questions and don't miss one.

Actually.....Jesus Christ has come. I mean.....it is sort of hard to pay extra or special attention and honor to boxes, water, people, places....etc.

I think all sorts of things are supposed to point people to Jesus Christ..........not the mother that had Him.

If Mary was standing in front of you now.....she would most likely work to turn your attention and focus away from her, and towards the Savior.

I dont think she would want or need our adoration. I am sure she considered herself a humble servant. She would rightly claim that such wonderful adoration should be focused on Jesus Christ.

Mary said so;

And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name.

You see?

She did not rejoice in herself. She bragged and boasted of nothing except God. She glorified and rejoiced in God her Savior. She claimed to be only humble. People would call her blessed not for the things she had done, but because the Mighty One had done great things for her!

Holy is "His name" she declared.

Big difference.

She was the first Christian, the first Beliver, the first defender of Christ, the only human being to have been with Jesus from before His birth, through His life and Passion & Crucifixtion and after His death and ressurection. She is the example of perfect Christianity never failing Jesus.

She was the defender of Jesus Christ? In all reality He was quite capable of calling down legions of angels if He needed any defence. Besides that, He was put on trial and was crucified!

That is defence?

In case you forgot, not only did God choose her to bring forth His Son, but He continually protected her with His Angels. I'd say it's a pretty big deal when God sends Angels to protect you and to talk to you on His behalf.

How do you know how many angels protect me? Even if an angel spoke with me, it is hardly reason for you to glory in me.

I think you are going to extremes on this.

Take care,

KJB

[Cepha]

kingjamesbond
Revelation 12 does not state that Mary is the mother of all Christians.

Sure does! Revelation 12:17 states literally that all those who are Christians are the offspring (the children) of the "woman" (this is how Jesus also addressed His own mother).

When He was told that His mother and brothers were outside, he merely made a claim. He did not give Mary or His brothers any special honor or attention at all. The text claims;

He looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

No special honor there.

Of course you would see it that way as it belittles her. But the fact is that Jesus compared obedeince to the standard of Christianity. Mary. He "included" them into His family "if" they were obedient as was His mother to God (Himself).

Of course, He wasn't talking biologically, but spiritually. Whoever does the will of His Father are His brethren, right? What does that make His mother to His brothers and sisters? Do they have different spiritual mothers now?

I dont see where you see all these things in Rev 12?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These are signs that are spoken of.

Signs of The Truth that was happening. Again, John was writing about what was happening at that time while he was imprisoned on the Island of Patmos. He was writing in code (Rome/Babylon, Nero/Beast, Dragon/Satan, War on the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ's children/Persecution of Christianity right after Jesus crucifixtion, woman that gave birth to Jesus/Mary, etc...).

Can you show us all where Mary was given the two wings of a great eagle and flew into the desert?

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Oh...so you "do" see it after all! ;D

This is a reference to Angels "again" protecting Mary as they did in Luke 1.

It's fact that John took care of Mary after the crucifixtion (because Jesus had no brothers to take over that duty, so He replaced Mary's only Son, Himself, with another son, John).

John was an outcast in the wilderness (with Mary) where he was spared martyrdom (John died of old age and was "not" martyred by the Roman empire...this is how he could write of the events that were happening and how we know what happened and continue to care for Jesus mother).

John and Mary's last days were spent in Ephesus (an ancient Greek city in what is known today as Turkey...AKA a desert [or wilderness depending on what translation you read] to them because they were outcasts from Jerusalum).

There, they were safe from Roman persecution.

Roman Catholics have turned Mary more into a person they worship.

You are now officially a Murderer in Jesus' words for you just slandered Catholics. That is a blatant lie. You are a lier.

And there are no such things as "Roman Catholics". Show me a "Roman Catholic Church" that is not a rite of The Catholic Church. You're creating a sub-group that does "not" exist.

Maybe we would all do better at showing our love with our actions to those mothers that are still on this earth?

Yeah, let's just ignore Jesus' mother right?

Tell you what, you go ahead and do that. When I get to Heaven and meet Jesus, He's not going to say to me "Why did you belittle my mother?" He's going to thank me for defending her against belittlers like you. Then I'm going to run up to her and get my hug from her!

Mr. Let's Love Only Our Earthly Mothers, how would you feel if anybody belittled your mother's role in bringing you to life?
You place a sinner (your mother) over a Saint (Jesus' Mother).
In my opinion, Jesus' Mother is better than your mother and my mother would be the first to say that she is better than herself because we love Jesus Mother and revere her and honor her...just like 85% of Christians do and 100% of Muslims do.

That's 2 Billion who love and honor and revere Mary.

There are mothers right now all around us that could use love.

What does that have to do with loving Mary? You're trying to dance your way out of this one. Won't happen. You're introducing subjects not part of the original topic.

What about all of those mothers who love The Mother of Jesus?
I'm sure their getting all that "love" you say they need from Jesus because they are loving His mother.

I am not belittling His mother. I bet she was a fine mother.

VS

He did not give Mary or His brothers any special honor or attention at all.

I would say that any honor Jesus gives is above any honor any man can give because He is God! And He "honored" His mother! And He is by far the most special person in the world so is His Honor.

And you want to talk about "honoring" Mary specially?

Tell me, how many Archangels of God have come down and spoken to you calling you God's favoured one?

I also agree she was blessed. I will even say she was blessed.

"Mary was blessed".

Peter was blessed. Paul was blessed. I have been blessed. Many people have been blessed.

None of them were blessed "among" any of their counterparts as Mary was. She was separated from all other women and called blessed "among" women (not along with women).

That is belittling her. You are trying to yank her down off of the pedestal that God Himself place her upon when He referred to her as blessed among women.

But hey, you can explain that one to her Son when you meet Him.

With the honor that is due a mother.....a woman.....not a god.

Prove that honoring Mary as Christians have for thousands of years is honoring her as a God?

We dont treat a box of acacia wood....(unless of course you have the ark and are hiding it from us all).........LOL

That's not what I said...I said "a box of acacia wood (The Ark)".
Respond to that.

Actually.....Jesus Christ has come. I mean.....it is sort of hard to pay extra or special attention and honor to boxes, water, people, places....etc.

The Law is still in effect. Along with that, the respect and honor due to His Father's House...the temple and the altar and the tabernacle. All of that is still in effect. Even Jesus respected these sacramentals and used water in rituals.

I think all sorts of things are supposed to point people to Jesus Christ..........not the mother that had Him.

Mary points to Christ. Why is it that Benny Hinn and John Hagee and King James and King Henry the VIII could all point to Christ, but Jesus' own mother can't? Show me one instance in which Mary in Scripture has ever pointed to herself and not to Christ or to God?

If Mary was standing in front of you now.....she would most likely work to turn your attention and focus away from her, and towards the Savior.

Typical Protestant exclusionism. Mary has always done that. You're making it sound as if she never did. This is her job. this is what she does. She brings persons to Christ. She's wayyyyy ahead of you on that one.

And besides, you contradict scripture. God loves it and it pleases Him when we fellowship with each other as the overwhelming majority of Christians do with Jesus' mother (while the underwhelming minority of sects started by men continue to exclude her from their spiritual families completely ignoring Christ's commands that we love her as He loved her...how did He love her? As His mother!).

I dont think she would want or need our adoration. I am sure she considered herself a humble servant. She would rightly claim that such wonderful adoration should be focused on Jesus Christ.

Is this like a chapter in The Protestant Handbook or something? You all say the same thing and it's always preceded by "I don't think...". You're never sure. I on the other hand and 100% sure.

You always work to place words or sentiments in Mary's mouth or in her heart instead of just going by what is actually written about her in The Bible.

And again, you slander Christianity. No Christian "adores" her. That is a lie an makes you in Jesus' eyes a Murderer.

Mary said so;

And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name.

You see?

I see Mary saying that she takes what God has done in her and amplifies it! She is literally someone God is using to extend and to increase His work! At least, if you believe that her soul magnifies the Lord.

Remember, it is Mary who says that God has done great things in her. Think about it...if God chose her to do great things in her, how is she just a common woman? How is she "not" special?

God honored her specially (among women)!

If God can, why can't you?

She did not rejoice in herself. She bragged and boasted of nothing except God. She glorified and rejoiced in God her Savior. She claimed to be only humble. People would call her blessed not for the things she had done, but because the Mighty One had done great things for her!

People call her blessed because God chose her and not only that, Gabriel called her highly favored by God before God ever did anything great in her!

Holy is "His name" she declared.Big difference.

Big difference between what?

Are you daring to compare Mary to God?

She was the defender of Jesus Christ? In all reality He was quite capable of calling down legions of angels if He needed any defence. Besides that, He was put on trial and was crucified!

Really? Then I guess it was Jesus who went to Egypt to protect Himself from Herod, huh?

That is defence?

Big time defense!

In case you forgot, not only did God choose her to bring forth His Son, but He continually protected her with His Angels. I'd say it's a pretty big deal when God sends Angels to protect you and to talk to you on His behalf.

How do you know how many angels protect me? Even if an angel spoke with me, it is hardly reason for you to glory in me.

Ok, I don't know. So why don't you tell me how many Angels you know for a fact God sent to protect you and that have talked to you like they did to Mary ("that" was the example I used...don't try to use only part of my statement and point, but use the entire point).

How many Angels has God sent to protect you that have spoken to you like they did to Mary?

[kingjamesbond]

Cephas,

Sure does! Revelation 12:17 states literally that all those who are Christians are the offspring (the children) of the "woman" (this is how Jesus also addressed His own mother).

You have not proven that the woman (which is symbolic) is Mary! You are jumping to end conclusions and results that are not even based on any proof in the first place. Revelation 12 does not state that the woman in the vision is Mary.

I say the woman in the vision is Israel.

As already indicated, the woman is the nation of Israel. This is evident for the following reasons: (1) Her description is reminiscent of Genesis 37:9-10 where these heavenly bodies, the sun and the moon, represent Jacob and Rachel. This identifies the woman with Israel and the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. (2) The 12 stars in her crown would link her to the 12 tribes of Israel or the 12 sons of Jacob, the patriarchs of Israel. (3) In verse 2 she is seen with child, one who rules with a rod of iron (vs. 5). This can be none other than Christ, who as promised in Scripture, was from the nation of Israel (Matt. 1:1-25; cf. also Psalm 2:8-9; Rev. 2:27; 19:15). (4) That she is Israel, the nation, and not simply Mary, the mother of Jesus, is clear from the fact she will be persecuted in the last half of the Tribulation (vss. 6, 13-17). So the woman is the nation of Israel, the matrix and source of Messiah.

bible.org/page.php?page_id=1765

Of course you would see it that way as it belittles her. But the fact is that Jesus compared obedeince to the standard of Christianity. Mary. He "included" them into His family "if" they were obedient as was His mother to God (Himself).

Where exactly does Jesus say that Mary was our model of obedience?

Of course, He wasn't talking biologically, but spiritually. Whoever does the will of His Father are His brethren, right? What does that make His mother to His brothers and sisters? Do they have different spiritual mothers now?

The point is already clear. People already knew Mary was His biological mother. No one disputed that. That is why they told Him His mother was there. The thing is.....He in no way glorified or pointed to her as being anymore special than those around Him. That is the fact as it is written.

Signs of The Truth that was happening. Again, John was writing about what was happening at that time while he was imprisoned on the Island of Patmos. He was writing in code (Rome/Babylon, Nero/Beast, Dragon/Satan, War on the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ's children/Persecution of Christianity right after Jesus crucifixtion, woman that gave birth to Jesus/Mary, etc...).

It does not conclude that Mary was the woman in the vision.

I say Israel is the woman in the vision.

This is a reference to Angels "again" protecting Mary as they did in Luke 1.

It's fact that John took care of Mary after the crucifixtion (because Jesus had no brothers to take over that duty, so He replaced Mary's only Son, Himself, with another son, John).

John was an outcast in the wilderness (with Mary) where he was spared martyrdom (John died of old age and was "not" martyred by the Roman empire...this is how he could write of the events that were happening and how we know what happened and continue to care for Jesus mother).

John and Mary's last days were spent in Ephesus (an ancient Greek city in what is known today as Turkey...AKA a desert [or wilderness depending on what translation you read] to them because they were outcasts from Jerusalum).

There, they were safe from Roman persecution.

It is actually a symbolic vision of God protecting Israel.

You are now officially a Murderer in Jesus' words for you just slandered Catholics. That is a blatant lie. You are a lier.

Ummmm......good thing I have a Savior I would say. And you?

And there are no such things as "Roman Catholics". Show me a "Roman Catholic Church" that is not a rite of The Catholic Church. You're creating a sub-group that does "not" exist.

Actually using the word "Catholic" creates a sub-group unless it is used in the way Protestants use it.

As for Roman Catholics not existing;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholics

They must be the largest non-existant group of people that actually exist!

Yeah, let's just ignore Jesus' mother right?

Tell you what, you go ahead and do that. When I get to Heaven and meet Jesus, He's not going to say to me "Why did you belittle my mother?" He's going to thank me for defending her against belittlers like you. Then I'm going to run up to her and get my hug from her!

So is this what it all leads to? Hugs from Mary? All this focus on Mary has its climax in a hug from her? Let me see now......why would she not hug everybody and anybody that is in heaven? Is she going to harbor some sort of hatred towards certain and specific people in heaven?

I mean seriously now.....is she going to turn up her nose and not give hugs to certain people?

By the way......Mary is wonderful. So at anytime you can cut with the "belittling" tactic.

Mr. Let's Love Only Our Earthly Mothers, how would you feel if anybody belittled your mother's role in bringing you to life?
You place a sinner (your mother) over a Saint (Jesus' Mother).

Remember....we are told to love our earthly mothers. Even you concluded that earlier on.

And also, my mother is a saint. You may see her as a sinner...but God looks at her as a saint. Yes...she has been saved.

In my opinion, Jesus' Mother is better than your mother and my mother would be the first to say that she is better than herself because we love Jesus Mother and revere her and honor her...just like 85% of Christians do and 100% of Muslims do.

In your opinion of course.

That's 2 Billion who love and honor and revere Mary.

What does that have to do with loving Mary? You're trying to dance your way out of this one. Won't happen. You're introducing subjects not part of the original topic.

What about all of those mothers who love The Mother of Jesus?
I'm sure their getting all that "love" you say they need from Jesus because they are loving His mother.

My point about loving mothers on earth can be well made.

We are told to love our neighbors as ourselves.

This does not involve bowing down to them and praying to them. It involves actual acts of love.

Its easy for a man to say "I love Mary because she is the mother of Jesus", and bow down and pray to her.

How easy is it for a man to go out and LOVE his neighbor? Do you need to know who is your neighbor? The same concept applies towards our love for God.

It is easy to say we love God. But real love is demonstrated in actions of love.

For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

And nor have you seen Mary. There are plenty of mothers here that can be seen that need love. I think we are all going to need a Savior.

Typical Protestant exclusionism. Mary has always done that. You're making it sound as if she never did. This is her job. this is what she does. She brings persons to Christ. She's wayyyyy ahead of you on that one.

Actually......the Bible is perfectly clear that the Father gives people to Jesus;

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

And again, you slander Christianity. No Christian "adores" her. That is a lie an makes you in Jesus' eyes a Murderer.

Here are some prayers from Popes in regard to Mary;

campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/PopesPrayers.htm

A slight bit more than honor due to a mother.

How many Angels has God sent to protect you that have spoken to you like they did to Mary?

I have as many as God wills to use.

KJB

[Cepha]

kingjamesbond said:

Cephas,

You have not proven that the woman (which is symbolic) is Mary! You are jumping to end conclusions and results that are not even based on any proof in the first place.

Yes, symbolic of things that actually happened.

Do you deny that this is Jesus Christ in Rev 19?
13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.

15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Do you deny that Jesus is The Word of God?
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Do you deny that the child born in Rev 12 is the same one in Rev 19?
5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Do you deny that this "son" was born of the woman in Rev 12?
2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.

Do you deny that it was Mary who gave birth to Jesus in Luke 1?
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.

31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

If you cannot deny these things, then the woman who gave birth to Jesus is Mary. Period.

I say the woman in the vision is Israel.

You're saying that the nation that to this day rejects Jesus is Jesus' symbolic mother?

What a mother. It condemned it's own son to death.

Besides, Israel (Jerusalem) is barren and "cannot" bear children until Jesus returns. This "woman" in scripture bore Jesus Christ and after Jesus was born, it was Israel who murdered and rejected Him.

Israel still reject Jesus and denies His Divinity.

As already indicated, the woman is the nation of Israel. This is evident for the following reasons: (1) Her description is reminiscent of Genesis 37:9-10 where these heavenly bodies, the sun and the moon, represent Jacob and Rachel. This identifies the woman with Israel and the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. (2) The 12 stars in her crown would link her to the 12 tribes of Israel or the 12 sons of Jacob, the patriarchs of Israel. (3) In verse 2 she is seen with child, one who rules with a rod of iron (vs. 5). This can be none other than Christ, who as promised in Scripture, was from the nation of Israel (Matt. 1:1-25; cf. also Psalm 2:8-9; Rev. 2:27; 19:15). (4) That she is Israel, the nation, and not simply Mary, the mother of Jesus, is clear from the fact she will be persecuted in the last half of the Tribulation (vss. 6, 13-17). So the woman is the nation of Israel, the matrix and source of Messiah.

bible.org/page.php?page_id=1765

Bible.org? Come on now...that's a "Protestant" site. It cannot be trusted especially since the completely contradict The Bible when they say this in their "Doctrinal Statement":

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Head of the Church, and that every local church has the right under Christ to decide and govern its own affairs.

Paul taught vehemently against local Churches deciding and governing their own affairs. He taught that they were all to be subject to the one true Church...not that they were to be independent separate churches.

They (Bible.org) use the name of Christ to contradict scripture.

And Israel was the one doing the persecuting. Hello? Remember the Pharisees? Remember how Israel was in league with Rome in persecuting Jesus and His Disciples "after" His death?


The Christian Bible isn't about Israel. It's about Christianity.

Isreal even rejected The New Testament.

Let me refresh your memory to the first post on my thread that has provable references:

Revelation 12

Quote:
1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary seen in heaven with Jesus in her...He is The Light (John 1) and this Light (as if arrayed in the light of the sun...play on words? The Son?) that enveloped Mary was Jesus.

The moon in Jewish writing signified darkness/evil (eternal sleep or death). She was stomping out evil and putting away darkness because of her work by bringing forth The Light...Jesus.

She was crowned...as The Mother of The King of Kings who is Jesus, she is The Queen of Queens. A King can only be born of a Queen and a King of Kings can only be born of the Queen of Queens. (Revelation 19:16).


Quote:
2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.

Who else's pain would be worth mentioning as much as the only woman to give birth to a child having never had relations with a man? If it's diffictult for a normal woman, how much more difficult would it be for a virgin?


Quote:
3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.

Obviously Satan.


Quote:
4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.

The angels he took with him.

Here he stands poised to persecute Mary and Jesus.


Quote:
5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Again, Revelations 19:15...Jesus rules all nations with an iron rod. He is assumpted to Heaven (Book of Acts).


Quote:
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here, is when Mary fled Jeruselum to Egypt for 3 1/2 years (precisely the time that she had to wait to return to Jeruselum...Herod died just under 4 years after Mary left Jeruselum).


Quote:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

Satan's rebellion.


Quote:
8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Satan's banishment.


Quote:
9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

Satan prepares to persecute Christianity with his demons.


Quote:
10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.
The Gospel is proclaimed. The bretheren accused are The Apostles.


Quote:
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Here, they talk about The Apostles who were martyred for The Gospel (except the writer of the book, John who was spared to care for Mary upon Jesus' death at The Cross).


Quote:
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

Earth = mankind as we are made of soil
Sea (or water) = spirits as does wind, like when Jesus breathed The Holy Spirit upon The Apostles, when His "Spirit" left His body with His last breath, when it was confirmed that His body was dead when water poured out, when baptism is conferred with "water and spirit", etc...


Quote:
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman that brought forth the man child.

Here, Satan persecutes those humans who follow Christ and especially Mary, she who brought forth The One who would undo what Satan did...Satan brougth life through "the woman" Eve, and "the woman" Mary's role is reversed of Eve's in that she brings life to man through Jesus. (Genesis 3).


Quote:
14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Mary is assumpted into a place where she is protected by Angels(but of course, why would Jesus abandon His mother to the perseuction of Satan having all the power of God at His disposal?). If we would protect our own mothers who are less blessed than Mary, of course we can reasonably expect that Jesus would do the same for her only with a lot more graces at His disposal.


Quote:
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman water as a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream.

Here, Satan hurls vile insults about Mary, trying to belittle her role in God's plan. Again, sending evil spirits into men that focus on belittling Mary and in minimizing her work for mankind.

He hopes that his evil talk and disrespect and dishonor of The Blessed Mother disuaded some of Jesus followers from remaining in full communion to His Church and that Mary's position as being loved by Christians is washed away in lies and deceit.


Quote:
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Here, humanity comes to the rescue of Mary (the earth) and defends her taking on all the attacks by blackhearted men being used by Satan to discredit Jesus' mother.


Quote:
17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

Since Satan couldnt any longer get to Mary or her exalted state in Christinity, he went on to attack those that love her and to whom her womb gave eternal life...those that follow her Son; those that keep God's Commandments.

Those are called Christians and all Christians are called her "seed" or her children because our eternal Life (Who is Jesus) came through her womb.

Mary is therefore, the spiritual mother of Christians.

Where exactly does Jesus say that Mary was our model of obedience?

Luke 1

The point is already clear. People already knew Mary was His biological mother. No one disputed that. That is why they told Him His mother was there. The thing is.....He in no way glorified or pointed to her as being anymore special than those around Him. That is the fact as it is written.

No...Gabriel already did that when he called her "blessed among women".

It is actually a symbolic vision of God protecting Israel.

Funny, I remember God condemning Israel for killing and rejecting His Son and then allowing Rome to turn on her and allowing the Temple to be destroyed after Jesus death.

Actually using the word "Catholic" creates a sub-group unless it is used in the way Protestants use it.

All other Christians are sub-Groups of Catholicism (universal Christianity) as they sprang "from" Catholicism.

As for Roman Catholics not existing;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholics

Wikipedia was "just" created a few years ago...since when does Wikipedia define for the world what The Church is?

The Church defines The Church...not a website.

By the way, while you were there, did you notice this?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_%28disambiguation%29

Or maybe this too?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

Or hey, how's about this one!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_of_the_Bible#Christian_canons

If you cite Wikipedia as the defining authority of how The Church refers to herself for 2,000 years, then you have to accept eveything that Wikipedia has to say! ;D

Fact is, it is The Church that decides what she is, not mankind. You'll find websites that call her The Whore of Babylon.
Those same sites called Pope John Paul II the antichrist.
Just like they do every pope (but darn those antichrists...they just don't manage to fulfill the prophecies do they and they keep dieing out on us! LOL)

They must be the largest non-existant group of people that actually exist!

In the eyes of a website, yes. There is no Roman Catholic Church. Find me one Catholic Website that calls itself The Roman Catholic Church (start at The Vatican's site...the only authoritative site on "what" Catholicism actually is).

So is this what it all leads to? Hugs from Mary? All this focus on Mary has its climax in a hug from her? Let me see now......why would she not hug everybody and anybody that is in heaven? Is she going to harbor some sort of hatred towards certain and specific people in heaven? I mean seriously now.....is she going to turn up her nose and not give hugs to certain people?

Nope. Mary doesn't "protest" anybody...even those who "protest" her.

By the way......Mary is wonderful. So at anytime you can cut with the "belittling" tactic.

All I had to do was quote you and compare what you say to what she actually is. I use your own words that Jesus doesn't set her apart. Again, that was done by God with Gabriel. Just because it isn't repeated over and over and over, it doesn't in any way "belittle" that Gabriel called her blessed "among" women.

Remember....we are told to love our earthly mothers. Even you concluded that earlier on.

Remember, we're talking about Mary, the mother of Jesus, not earthly mothers. Stop trying to change the subject.

And also, my mother is a saint. You may see her as a sinner...but God looks at her as a saint. Yes...she has been saved.

Really? Scripture only refers to Church leaders and those who have died and gone to heaven as "Saints".

Where do you see common laypersons referred to as "Saints" in scripture?

In your opinion of course.

In mine and in 2 Billion others'. ;D

My point about loving mothers on earth can be well made.
We are told to love our neighbors as ourselves.

We are told to love Mary as or mother.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

(Exactly "how" did He love His mother again?)

This does not involve bowing down to them and praying to them. It involves actual acts of love.

Jesus bowed down to The Apostles.
Are you better than Jesus that you can't bow down?
Are you "that" great that you can't humble yourself?
That you can't serve others?

Its easy for a man to say "I love Mary because she is the mother of Jesus", and bow down and pray to her.

You just mixed up 3 different things that no Catholic believes or states to create a new belief. Nobody is going to be that stupid that their going to believe what you just said.

For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
And nor have you seen Mary. There are plenty of mothers here that can be seen that need love. I think we are all going to need a Savior.

That's right...keep wiggling and trying to change the focus to secular women.

Now, show me in scripture where it is forbidden to pray to anyone "but" God?

Here are some prayers from Popes in regard to Mary;

campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/PopesPrayers.htm

A slight bit more than honor due to a mother.

"In your opinion of course."

How many Angels has God sent to protect you that have spoken to you like they did to Mary?

I have as many as God wills to use.

That's not an answer. Again, how many angels has God sent to you that have spoken to you like Gabriel spoken to The Virgin Mary?

[kingjamesbond]

Cephas,

In the eyes of a website, yes. There is no Roman Catholic Church. Find me one Catholic Website that calls itself The Roman Catholic Church (start at The Vatican's site...the only authoritative site on "what" Catholicism actually is).

Here is the Vatican website;

www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Type in Roman Catholic Church in the search.

This is where you should end up.

vatican.mondosearch.com/search_en.aspx?query=roman+catholic+church&x=21&y=6

Click on; "Theological dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church".

This is where you should end up;

www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20000719_baltimore_en.html

It is a document from the Vatican.

This is the title;

Joint international commission for the theological dialogue
between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church

COMMUNIQUÉ

Emmitsburg- Baltimore USA, July 9-19, 2000

Amazing isnt it?

KJB

[Cepha]

Apr 7, 2008 20:28:51 GMT -5 kingjamesbond said:

Cephas,

In the eyes of a website, yes. There is no Roman Catholic Church. Find me one Catholic Website that calls itself The Roman Catholic Church (start at The Vatican's site...the only authoritative site on "what" Catholicism actually is).

Here is the Vatican website;

www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Type in Roman Catholic Church in the search.

This is where you should end up.

vatican.mondosearch.com/search_en.aspx?query=roman+catholic+church&x=21&y=6

Click on; "Theological dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church".

This is where you should end up;

www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20000719_baltimore_en.html

It is a document from the Vatican.

This is the title;

Joint international commission for the theological dialogue
between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church

COMMUNIQUÉ

Emmitsburg- Baltimore USA, July 9-19, 2000

Amazing isnt it?

KJB

Did you actually read the text in those links you send me?

You do understand the difference between a "rite" of The Catholic Church and an actual "church" right?

Nope...there is no Roman Catholic Church there KJB. You pointed out a "rite" within The Catholic Church. It is "not" a sovereign church, but a rite "of" The Church.

Amazing isnt it?



(Too easy Drill Sergeant!)

KJB, the very first post of the first link you referred me to points this out. Maybe you should go back an actually "read" what you throw out to support your beliefs. Save yourself the correction and humiliation at the sarcasm you displayed. It's the richochet effect.

The term "Roman Catholic Church" is a designation of "which" Catholic Rite is involved in that document.

Do you know how many rites there are of Catholicism?
If you were to only use The Roman Rite, you'd alienate the rest of Catholicism that you are "still" not in union with and remain outside of.

Rites Of The Catholic Church:

Whoah! Too much information!

OK, here's a site from which you "first" referred me to on Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_%28disambiguation%29

Here is the detailed explanation on what a "rite" is:
www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

And here's a detailed explanation how the Church got her name:
www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm

Now, being armed with allllllll that information and resources, show me "where" in the world is a "The Roman Catholic Church" (not a rite of The Catholic Church)?

I knew EXACTLY what I was asking you when I originally worded my question to you KJB. ;D

[Cepha]

Oh yeah, just in case you forgot...

...How many angels has God sent to you that have spoken to you like Gabriel spoken to The Virgin Mary?




;D

[kingjamesbond]

Cephas;

Here are some of your own quotes;

And there are no such things as "Roman Catholics". Show me a "Roman Catholic Church" that is not a rite of The Catholic Church. You're creating a sub-group that does "not" exist.

No such things as Roman Catholics?

Rite of the Catholic Church?

I respond with;

Actually using the word "Catholic" creates a sub-group unless it is used in the way Protestants use it.

As for Roman Catholics not existing;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholics

They must be the largest non-existant group of people that actually exist!

If the word "Catholic" is used as Protestants use it in regard to the Church.....there is no sub-group as the word Catholic applies to everybody that is saved no matter where they are found.

Protestants claim the head of the Church is Jesus Christ.

Catholic means universal in that sense.

If you use the word "Catholic" and apply it to mean only the Church under Papal authority as if the Pope is the head of the Church........it is you yourself that has made a sub-group that excludes those not being under the Papal head.

How do I know this?

Because Christ is the head and He is the authority.

Authority of what you may ask?

Of His ENTIRE Church for one thing.

How do I know this?

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

I show you a wikipedia site and you dont accept it....thats fine!

Here is your response;

All other Christians are sub-Groups of Catholicism (universal Christianity) as they sprang "from" Catholicism.

Let me make a few things crystal clear.

All other Christians "spring" from God in three persons.

Did you notice the earlier text above?

Here it is again;

He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Christians dont "spring" from the Catholic Church.

Rebels are rescued from the domain of darkness and are then........"His Church".

The Father has given His Son a kingdom. It is that simple.

Here are a few more of your responses;

Wikipedia was "just" created a few years ago...since when does Wikipedia define for the world what The Church is?

The Church defines The Church...not a website.

By the way, while you were there, did you notice this?

In the eyes of a website, yes. There is no Roman Catholic Church. Find me one Catholic Website that calls itself The Roman Catholic Church (start at The Vatican's site...the only authoritative site on "what" Catholicism actually is).

So I started at the Vatican website......and you still dont accept it!

Dont really know what to say except getting kinda tired of going around in circles.

KJB

[Cepha]

Two simple questions that you have "not" answered:

Show me a "Roman Catholic Church"?

And, ...How many angels has God sent to you that have spoken to you like Gabriel spoken to The Virgin Mary?

Everything you posted states the same thing (when one checks the sites you linked). They all talk about the Roman Rite of The Catholic Church (especially in the disambiguation of the very first site you posted).

Are you ever going to provide an address?
A website?
Something?
Anything?

Or are you ever going to answer my question regarding angels?



PS The Vatican site doesn't call itself "The Roman Catholic Church", does it? In fact, it calls itself "The Holy See". Right?

Did you happen to "miss" this on that wikipedia link you gave me?
============================================
Catholic Church (disambiguation)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Look up Catholic Church in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.The term Catholic Church is most commonly used to mean:

The Roman Catholic Church
The Christian Church in general
Catholic Church is also used to describe other entities:

In Eastern Christianity:

The Eastern Orthodox Church
The Oriental Orthodox Churches
The Assyrian Church of the East
In Western Christianity:

The Old Catholic Church
The Polish National Catholic Church
The Orthodox Catholic Church
The Independent Catholic Churches
The Anglican Communion
The Continuing Anglican Churches
For fuller information, see Catholicism


[edit] See also
Anglo-Catholicism
Branch Theory
Catholic
Four Marks of the Church
Neo-Lutheranism

[I.M.Apologetics]

so she is our Mother

[Cepha]

Apr 12, 2008 0:44:04 GMT -5 I.M.Apologetics said:

so she is our Mother

Amen.

Can't stress it enough...

Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Taken in the context of the passage:

Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman,

Satan was angry with Mary (who was the only "woman" who gave birth to Jesus Christ in the beginning of this chapter).

and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,

The seed being her children, the brethren of The Son that she gave birth to because through her womb comes our eternal life (Who is Jesus).

which keep the commandments of God,

Those who are obey the Scriptures.

and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Christians who bear witness to, testify to Christ being The Messiah, The Son of The Living God.

[Cepha]

Revelation 12:17
"So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to (A)make war with the rest of her (B)children, who (C)keep the commandments of God and (D)hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Cross references:

A. Revelation 12:17 : Rev 11:7; 13:7
B. Revelation 12:17 : Gen 3:15
C. Revelation 12:17 : 1 John 2:3; Rev 14:12
D. Revelation 12:17 : Rev 1:2; 6:9; 14:12; 19:10

Revelation 11:7
7When they have finished their testimony, (A)the beast that comes up out of the (B)abyss will (C)make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

Revelation 13:7
7It was also given to him to (A)make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over (B)every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Genesis 3:15
15And I will put (A)enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
(B)He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."

1 John 2:3
3(A)By this we know that we have come to (B)know Him, if we (C)keep His commandments.

Revelation 14:12
12Here is (A)the perseverance of the saints who (B)keep the commandments of God and (C)their faith in Jesus.

Revelation 1:2
2who testified to (A)the word of God and to (B)the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Revelation 6:9
The Fifth Seal--Martyrs
9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw (A)underneath the (B)altar the (C)souls of those who had been slain (D)because of the word of God, and because of the (E)testimony which they had maintained;

Revelation 14:12
12Here is (A)the perseverance of the saints who (B)keep the commandments of God and (C)their faith in Jesus.



Revelation 19:10
10Then (A)I fell at his feet to worship him (B)But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a (C)fellow servant of yours and your brethren who (D)hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

[Cepha]

Or in plain English...

Revelation 12:17
"And Satan was angry with Mary and went to persecute her other children,
those that remained loyal to God and who believed in Jesus Christ."

[knuckle]

One could just as easily say that the woman was New Jerusalem-----Gal.4

is was and is to come


much love-------------knuckle