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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 23:30:46 GMT -5
Also please, explain to us what's the difference between a false doctrine and a false gospel? Scriptures doesn't make a distinction. Why do you make such a distinction? In IC.XC, Ramon The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ has came, lived and died for our sins, and that He rose again so that through His sacrifice we can be reconciled to the Father. The deity of Christ, The Trinity, baptism, the timing of the rapture, when the Millennium is, eternal security, ect... are all doctrines, not the gospel. The deity of Christ is critical to the Gospel, for if Jesus was not God, his death meant nothing. His death will only have a impact if he was God, equal to the Father. The Holy Incarnation is the Son of God becoming man, without ceasing to be God, in order to be the sacrificial lamb who takes away the sins of the world (cf. John 1:14, ). Christ' ministry and death would count for nothing if he was just a human being; a human being couldn't reconciled humanity with God. But Christ was the God-Man. His Divinity and Humanity are critical to the Gospel. I am not in process to assume the salvation status of anyone. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:23). Christ' in the Gospel of John claim equality with His Father, he was sent by the Father to do his will, etc. Unless the Jews believed everything He said about Himself, they would die in there sins. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 30, 2009 8:22:37 GMT -5
Do you think the fact that they do not believe Jesus to be God would nullify their Salvation? I don't know. If they don't accept the "right" Jesus...does it count? I mean, Jesus is God...to know Him any differenty is to know a false Jesus. If that makes sense. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 10:28:38 GMT -5
Do you think the fact that they do not believe Jesus to be God would nullify their Salvation? I don't know. If they don't accept the "right" Jesus...does it count? I mean, Jesus is God...to know Him any differenty is to know a false Jesus. If that makes sense. Yes, that makes since. So let make you this (For the sake of argument). Lets say the trinity is not a correct teaching, and Jesus is God Himself ''the Father'' incarnate as a man, and not ''God the Son'' 1/3 of the Trinity incarnate as a man. Do you believe according to your statement that to know the wrong Jesus would be not knowing Jesus at all? Would that mean all trinitarians are going to be damned? |
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 10:30:24 GMT -5
The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ has came, lived and died for our sins, and that He rose again so that through His sacrifice we can be reconciled to the Father. The deity of Christ, The Trinity, baptism, the timing of the rapture, when the Millennium is, eternal security, ect... are all doctrines, not the gospel. The deity of Christ is critical to the Gospel, for if Jesus was not God, his death meant nothing. His death will only have a impact if he was God, equal to the Father. The Holy Incarnation is the Son of God becoming man, without ceasing to be God, in order to be the sacrificial lamb who takes away the sins of the world (cf. John 1:14, ). Christ' ministry and death would count for nothing if he was just a human being; a human being couldn't reconciled humanity with God. Why not it was a man that separated us, why couldn't a man have reconciled us. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 10:31:42 GMT -5
I am not in process to assume the salvation status of anyone. Actually you are. You are assuming those that do not believe in the deity of Christ are not saved. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 10:33:19 GMT -5
Do you think the fact that they do not believe Jesus to be God would nullify their Salvation? I don't know. If they don't accept the "right" Jesus...does it count? I mean, Jesus is God...to know Him any differenty is to know a false Jesus. If that makes sense. Let me asked the same question in a different way. How much God do we have to think Jesus is to be saved? Is believing Jesus is 1/3 God good enough? |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 30, 2009 12:19:57 GMT -5
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 30, 2009 12:20:34 GMT -5
I believe Jesus is 100% God. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 30, 2009 12:22:18 GMT -5
We dont KNOW everything, we just have to have Faith. I think Jesus and God are two in one body. Holy Spirt in there too  |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 30, 2009 12:41:04 GMT -5
LOL! You got me there. The original subject was "the Genealogy of Christian denominations" But I think that what we are talking about can apply. Some Churches are deeply divided over the issue of baptism. Since opposite views cannot both be correct, I think it is important to discuss it. What that the subject you were talking about? Actually, now I don't remember.  teresa |
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 12:48:53 GMT -5
LOL! You got me there. The original subject was "the Genealogy of Christian denominations" But I think that what we are talking about can apply. Some Churches are deeply divided over the issue of baptism. Since opposite views cannot both be correct, I think it is important to discuss it. What that the subject you were talking about? Actually, now I don't remember. teresa Well, no baptism is a good subject, but the subject I was referring to is can people get into heaven that do not believe Jesus is God. I believe they can, simply because I cannot find scripture that says they can't. I am in full agreement that scripture teaches Jesus is God, and I do not understand why anyone could study scripture and not realize this truth. However many people teach and believe many things that oppose scripture and yet will still go to heaven. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 30, 2009 12:49:39 GMT -5
If someone didn't believe that Jesus is God, but "confess Him as their Lord and serve Him diligently" wouldn't they think that is idolatry? I mean, to them, they would be worshipping someone that they didn't believe was God. That doesn't make sense.
Ok, so the original argument was that watchman says that St. Augustine preached a "false gospel" because he told people to be baptized.
My question for watchman is to QUOTE from the Bible "the gospel" that is a complete description with the word "gospel" in the description. I have already done so, several times, but when I saw "the gospel" described it was not the same as your definition,
Anyway, let me ask you another important question. Why are the 4 Gospels called "the Gospel according to St. Matthew, the Gospel according to St. Mark, etc. they taught many thing about Jesus besides just a little formula on how to be saved.
peace
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Apr 30, 2009 12:50:13 GMT -5
Too bad St. Augustine isn't here to defend himself watchman. He was NOT the first to teach "the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary" that one is really ridiculous. teresa The Bible already covered that!  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 30, 2009 12:50:53 GMT -5
Ahhh, Millerism not Millennialism, as in the Millerites. I got ya. Sorry for the confusion. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 30, 2009 12:57:40 GMT -5
By the way, I do believe that everything in this definition is true.
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 14:02:59 GMT -5
Ok, so the original argument was that watchman says that St. Augustine preached a "false gospel" because he told people to be baptized. This is not a true statement and therefore your whole premiss is been off for days now. I agree that a believer ''MUST'' be baptized. The false gospel of Augustine is that they had to be baptized into the Catholic church rather than any other church. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 30, 2009 14:48:05 GMT -5
Ok, so the original argument was that watchman says that St. Augustine preached a "false gospel" because he told people to be baptized. This is not a true statement and therefore your whole premiss is been off for days now. I agree that a believe ''MUST'' be baptized. The false gospel of Augustine is that they had to be baptized into the Catholic church rather than any other church. What Augustine personally believed does not automatically constitute Christian Doctrine. However, where he was right, that was accepted into Christian teaching. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 30, 2009 14:52:56 GMT -5
Ok, so the original argument was that watchman says that St. Augustine preached a "false gospel" because he told people to be baptized. This is not a true statement and therefore your whole premiss is been off for days now. I agree that a believe ''MUST'' be baptized. The false gospel of Augustine is that they had to be baptized into the Catholic church rather than any other church. Also, don't forget that in Augustine's time, any other group that called themselves "Christian" but that were outside of The Catholic Church (which was the only true Christian Church at the time) was heretical because they had incorporated anti-Christian beliefs (like Jesus not believing that women could be saved, etc...). So in his time, he was right. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 16:55:56 GMT -5
I disagree, I believe there has always been a remnant of true Christians that survived outside of Catholicism. My question would be were there any true Christians within Catholicism between 500-1500 AD?
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 30, 2009 17:42:08 GMT -5
I believe so.
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