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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 8:16:10 GMT -5
That you must believe before baptism is effective. Whoever denied that? Of course a person has to believe before they are baptized. Who would be baptized that didn't first believe of their own choice? That makes no sense. Who's going to deny that?  |
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:00:33 GMT -5
Where in the Bible does it say that you must believe before you are baptised? Still waiting for a verse that says that too. I know that babies were baptized without having to believe. That's in The Bible. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:04:00 GMT -5
Infanst can't first believe of their own choice........
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:05:20 GMT -5
Em, Watchman and anybody else...please quote the scripture when you list the chapter and verse. Thank you. Acts 8:36-38 (King James Version) 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. If you notice, he stated that he wanted to be baptized "before" he made his proclamation of faith, right? So which came first? His desire to be baptized? Or his proclamation of faith? |
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:08:35 GMT -5
sorry new international version NIV Bible is published by same company that publishes the Satanic Bible. It cannot be trusted. Hence, the confusion.  |
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:08:45 GMT -5
Acts, Cepha. Verse 37.
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:09:47 GMT -5
Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.Philip tells the Eunuch as I have already shown more than once on this thread that IF you believe THEN you may be baptized, and Jesus tells us in Mark 16:16 to believe and be baptized but if we do not believe we will be damned (whether we are baptized or not). So what is the point of baptism with out belief? Mark 16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Could you highlight in the color red where it says "then" there? I still don't see it (and I read English pretty darn well!). ;D |
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:10:38 GMT -5
Acts 8:36-38
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:11:39 GMT -5
I don't always say "then", personally...it's implied in a lot of what I say.
little sister: "Can I have another brownie?"
me: "If you finish your first one, you can have another one."
If-then implied.
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:12:48 GMT -5
Infanst can't first believe of their own choice........ That's my point. If the purpose of baptism is a requirement of salvation and infants aren't baptized and it cannot be proven that they believe in Jesus, then they are damned to Hell, right? But The Bible states that "households" (which include children, infants, elderly, etc...) were baptized and "children" were saved because a parent was saved, yet the children weren't around and didn't express "faith". See? Children can be saved/baptized on their parents behaved. If one cannot be born again without being baptized in water, then we have to assume that if The Bible says that children were saved (born again), they had to be baptized in water. |
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:16:15 GMT -5
Could you please post the scripture and not just the verse alone. What chapter? See, it's important (you, Watchman and anybody else who quotes scripture) to post the actual verses because mistakes and misquoting can be committed. So please folks as a general rule, let's all quote the actual verses along with the number of the chapter and verse and book. Thanks. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:16:17 GMT -5
it's purpose is not for salvation. it is a work.
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:20:04 GMT -5
it's purpose is not for salvation. it is a work. You mean, it's not a requirement of salvation when Jesus said tht unless you are born again of water and spirit, you will not be saved? |
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:20:53 GMT -5
I think I said this earlier in this thread..."baptism" in the BIble, does not always mean by water.
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:21:05 GMT -5
I don't always say "then", personally...it's implied in a lot of what I say. little sister: "Can I have another brownie?" me: "If you finish your first one, you can have another one." If-then implied. Hmmm...that's kind of a familiar argument with the whole "Joseph had no relations with Mary up until..." |
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Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 9:29:49 GMT -5
Infanst can't first believe of their own choice........ Who are to say that Infants do not have faith? The word "faith" and "belief" comes from the same Greek word (pistis), and in most cased can be equally and accurately translated as "trust". or "confidence". Seen in this light, faith is not a rationalistic concept. Faith expresses a relationship of truth. To have faith in another human is to experience a bond of trust and love that is not primarily a product of analytical reasoning. The biblical meaning of faith is not restricted only to those with adult intellect or those who can express there faith verbally. Biblical faith applies to those who trust. In Psalm 22:9, the quality of faith is ascribed to a nursing infant. In Matthew, Jesus referred to a little child whom Held in his arms as "one of these little ones who believe in me" (Matthew 18:6). Has Jordan Bajis said, "Why should communion with God be given only to those who have the ability to reason as an adult? Cannot a child truly experience the Lord through his Christian Parents? Must he first have the ability to cognate and analyze before he can lknow the love of God? Is God prevented from having communion with the human spirit of a child until his brain is fully developed? [.....] Has age ever prevented one from having a relationship with God? Did not John the Baptist leap for joy at the presence of the Lord when he was still in his mother's womb? The one who accepts only a rationalistic definition of faith is left with more difficult questions to answer. Doesn't this perspective force one to conclude that one's trust in and experience of God is directly proportional to one's intellectual abilities? If so, what about the Christian who has grown senile in old age? Does this relationship with God weaken with the infirmity?" (Common Ground: An Introduction to Eastern Christianity for the American Christian, pg 304). Where in Scriptures does it say that one must "believe" in Christ in order to Baptize? Even Watchman is having trouble giving a Scripture that said that. All we have are example of adults who obviously needed to profess there faith before entering into the Baptismal Font. In the OT, the parents of Jewish Infants will confess there faith on behalf of the Jewish infant. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:30:14 GMT -5
...what? It makes sense Joseph wouldn't have...they weren't married yet, and she had God's Son in her...I know that would be a turn off for my hubby.
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:33:37 GMT -5
...what? It makes sense Joseph wouldn't have...they weren't married yet, and she had God's Son in her...I know that would be a turn off for my hubby. That's not the point of the mention...I was just trying to show what you were stating about things being "implied", even if not said.  |
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Post by emily445455 on May 8, 2009 9:35:39 GMT -5
I believe we can use our brains when reading the Bible. Some things are implied. As long as it fits with the rest of Scripture.
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 10:23:30 GMT -5
I believe we can use our brains when reading the Bible. Some things are implied. As long as it fits with the rest of Scripture. AH HA! (Yes, I yelled that one! LOL!) You admit that personal interpretation is used when reading scripture! LOL! |
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