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Post by Cepha on Jun 14, 2009 14:02:27 GMT -5
So which one is it Heather and Steven? Are the original texts not around or are they owned by the RCC? A king would have access to the original texts.... I certainly can research on my own....but frankly I don't really trust information online, and I have no idea how to look up this kind of information at a library. Plus, at the class at my church they have all the research laid out and all I have to do is listen, read, and take notes. Kind of like a college class. What makes you think that a heretic would be granted access to our scriptures? The oldest (not original) NT texts are held by The Catholic Church. Trust me, I believe in you wanting to trust your pastor or church to teach you. I applaud that. I really do. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 14, 2009 14:04:16 GMT -5
I am also thinking about going to the BIble Institute offered at my church sometime in the far away future....we have to take a bunch of classes as pre-requestis (sp) to get in. I have taken a few...but not all of them.
Plus, like I said...it's like taking a college class (at least in my experience). The teachers do all the research for you and lecture, all you have to do is sit there listen and take notes.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 14, 2009 14:06:47 GMT -5
Emily, i have never been able to figure out how a grown woman cannot think for her own, like do research on her own. You always have to have your pastor or church to teach you everything. You would be amazed of what historical facts you can find on the computer...since you are always on it!  Exactly. God gives us teachers, but never forbids our own search for truth. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 14, 2009 14:38:49 GMT -5
I am also thinking about going to the BIble Institute offered at my church sometime in the far away future....we have to take a bunch of classes as pre-requestis (sp) to get in. I have taken a few...but not all of them. Plus, like I said...it's like taking a college class (at least in my experience). The teachers do all the research for you and lecture, all you have to do is sit there listen and take notes. I respect that Em. For me, I've found that I'd never learn how many prophets there are in the Bible or what year was the temple torn down or how many miles it is from point a to point b in the bible. Those to me are all superficial facts. I've known men who are ordained ministers who could list the books from beginning to end and literally repeat them backwards. Yet, they didn't "know" scripture. For me (and I'm not saying that this works for everybody), the best way I learn is by reading alone and in silence. I pray that God guides me and that I don't misinterpret His words. I pray that He be my understanding so that I myself won't get in my own way. I'm not saying I always get it right, but I believe wholeheartedly that all outside sources can do (be they The Church or an educational institution) is to confirm what God teaches "if" God is "with" them. Again Em, I really respect you for wanting to learn. To me, that is beautiful. Honestly, you'll be in heaven wayyyyy before I get there! And as I'm passing you on my way to Purgatory, you'll say "Hey! Ceph! Look who I'm with! It's Mary! You were right! She's soooo beautiful and loving!" And I'll smile and go to Purgatory to throw rocks at Satan with the rest of us Christian vagabonds (both Catholic and Protestant). Granted, I'll be gloating because they won't be able to deny Purgatory anymore! And I'll say "Hey! This don't look like Abraham's Bosom to me!" LOL! ;D |
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 14, 2009 19:17:27 GMT -5
Loved that. Cheered me up from my crazy day.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 14, 2009 21:18:00 GMT -5
Honestly, you'll be in heaven wayyyyy before I get there! Is that a threat? Lol. And I do not doubt Mary mother of Jesus is a very, very beautiful and wonderful woman. I am looking foward to meeting and talking with her. |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 15, 2009 12:30:02 GMT -5
So I googled where the KJV came from and read the first hit. Very interesting. It talked about how other modern versions are based on the manuscripts at the Vatican and some other place I've never heard of but are by far not the best because they omit huge sections of the Bible. And that on almost every page there are "corrections" made by about 10 people. It says that most people only used those documents because they are the oldest, didn't think to investigate their validity. That there are 618 other old manuscripts (that was used to translate the KJV) of the same texts who agree on the issues the 2 at Vataican and the other place left out. 618 to 2....I'll believe the 618.
Hum...that was easier than I thought.
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 15, 2009 12:45:09 GMT -5
Re: the Apocrypha. Most sites say it was included in the KJV but not as Scripture, just viewed as books of historic value. Then later taken out due to printing costs.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 17, 2009 10:15:12 GMT -5
Loved that. Cheered me up from my crazy day. ;D That's my job! |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 17, 2009 10:29:06 GMT -5
Honestly, you'll be in heaven wayyyyy before I get there! Is that a threat? Lol. And I do not doubt Mary mother of Jesus is a very, very beautiful and wonderful woman. I am looking foward to meeting and talking with her. LOL! Nooo! When you do, she'll ask you to forgive me for being so zealous when I defend her. She loves everybody (even those that hate her). She's like a real mother, only she's the best example of a mother. Through her womb, came something that no one can deny...through her womb came man's life (salvation).  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 17, 2009 10:55:48 GMT -5
So I googled where the KJV came from and read the first hit. Very interesting. It talked about how other modern versions are based on the manuscripts at the Vatican and some other place I've never heard of but are by far not the best because they omit huge sections of the Bible. And that on almost every page there are "corrections" made by about 10 people. It says that most people only used those documents because they are the oldest, didn't think to investigate their validity. That there are 618 other old manuscripts (that was used to translate the KJV) of the same texts who agree on the issues the 2 at Vataican and the other place left out. 618 to 2....I'll believe the 618. Hum...that was easier than I thought. Is your source a "reliable" source? Is it a secular source or a Protestant slanted source? Question your sources too Em. And you should read as many different versions of the history of The KJV as possible. Don't just trust the first one that comes along. And, King James never had access to Vatican Documents. What is your source that said this?  |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 17, 2009 10:58:23 GMT -5
Re: the Apocrypha. Most sites say it was included in the KJV but not as Scripture, just viewed as books of historic value. Then later taken out due to printing costs. So, they added words to God's Word, then took words away? Revelation 2218For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book. Can the producers of The KJV still be trusted then? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 17, 2009 11:43:12 GMT -5
People told me to look it up online...I did. I found two sites that said the same thing...no sites that said something different. It doesn't matter much anyways, the class at my church will roll around probably sometime this yr or next yr.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 18, 2009 8:06:03 GMT -5
People told me to look it up online...I did. I found two sites that said the same thing...no sites that said something different. It doesn't matter much anyways, the class at my church will roll around probably sometime this yr or next yr. Ok, but what are the sites Alfie? Are they biased sites that can't be trusted? Or non-biased sites that can be trusted? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 18, 2009 9:25:20 GMT -5
IDK, I can't find the sites I used. It doesn't matter anyways though |
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Post by alfie on Jun 18, 2009 9:39:02 GMT -5
Re: the Apocrypha. Most sites say it was included in the KJV but not as Scripture, just viewed as books of historic value. Then later taken out due to printing costs. So, they added words to God's Word, then took words away? Revelation 2218For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book. Can the producers of The KJV still be trusted then? The original Catholic Vulgate Bible.... Genesis 3:15 says And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; She (meaning Mary)
WRONG! It should be HE ( meaning JESUS) shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel. |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 18, 2009 9:48:46 GMT -5
So, they added words to God's Word, then took words away? Revelation 2218For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book. Can the producers of The KJV still be trusted then? The original Catholic Vulgate Bible.... Genesis 3:15 says And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; She (meaning Mary)
WRONG! It should be HE ( meaning JESUS) shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.
Then you admit that the "woman" being spoken of here is Mary if that's Jesus!Genesis 3:15
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I will make you and the woman hostile toward each other. I will make your descendants and her descendant hostile toward each other. He will crush your head, and you will bruise his heel."
King James Bible
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
American King James Version
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
American Standard Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Bible in Basic English
And there will be war between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed: by him will your head be crushed and by you his foot will be wounded.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Darby Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel.
English Revised Version
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Webster's Bible Translation
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
World English Bible
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel."
Young's Literal Translation
and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.' |
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Post by Cepha on Jun 18, 2009 9:50:29 GMT -5
IDK, I can't find the sites I used. It doesn't matter anyways though But didn't you say it was the first one you found on Google? What "phrase" did you Google to get those sites? |
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Post by emily445455 on Jun 18, 2009 9:50:32 GMT -5
Yes, it's speaking about Mary and her virgin birth to Jesus. That's how we know it's Mary and not Eve.
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Post by Ramon on Jun 18, 2009 12:30:39 GMT -5
So, they added words to God's Word, then took words away? Revelation 2218For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book. Can the producers of The KJV still be trusted then? The original Catholic Vulgate Bible.... Genesis 3:15 says And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; She (meaning Mary)
WRONG! It should be HE ( meaning JESUS) shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel. Don't you know the Douay Bible is a translation of the Latin version of the Bible, done by Saint Jerome in the 4th century? Why did Saint Jerome use "she" instead of "he"? There are some grounds for his decision to render the text the way he did, but I will bypassed them, and just say that many Catholics agree that the rendering of Genesis 3:15 in the Latin version is a error, but do not deny the sense is the same. Now, let's just sit down and read how the Douay Bible render the text? Does it propose a heresy? Mary-worship? I do not believe so. The Ever-Virgin Mary, the Most Holy Theotokos, did bruise the serpent, the Devil, in some sense, as she gave birth to Christ Jesus, the God-Man, who ultimately destroyed Satan and death. Her "Yes" paved the way for Salvation. Even if one will use the Douay Bible rendering of the text, I find no heresy in the text. One can say Jesus Christ directly "crushed" the serpent and the serpent's plans, and He was directly "struck" by the serpent, while the Theotokos only indirectly "crushed" the serpent. She was the person who agreed to become the human channel through which Christ would enter the world in order to crush the serpent’s head (Luke 1:38). She herself was wounded when the serpent struck Jesus. Simeon had prophesied to her that "a sword will pierce through your own soul also," a prophecy fulfilled when Mary saw her Son hanging from the cross (John 19:25–27). I believe the sense is the same in both renderings. In IC.XC, Ramon P.S. The lady [alfie] doth protest too much, methinks. |
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