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Post by Cepha on Apr 10, 2008 8:06:46 GMT -5
Catholics have always placed God before Jesus.
Protestants always talk about God The Son and almost never talk about God (which is clearly provable just by scanning these threads).
We've always believed that it is God Who chooses one to come to Him and Who opens one's heart to Him and He uses Jesus as that path.
What do you think?
One has to go to Jesus "first" to go to God?
Or is it God Who brings you to Him and Jesus is just a "vessel" to God?
Before you answer however, I think in the interest of fairness, I should arm you with this verse;
John 6:65
And he said, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 10, 2008 8:13:10 GMT -5
I believe God, Jesus, and the HS are all one. Therfore, they do different things, but do the same things...if that makes sense. So when I pray "Dear God" I am praying to God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS...not just God the Father.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 10, 2008 9:09:51 GMT -5
I think i feel the same... Sometimes i call him God, sometimes Jesus.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 10, 2008 10:11:16 GMT -5
Both The Holy Spirit and Jesus are subject to God The Father.
They didn't create Him, they preceeded "from" God The Father.
There is no equality in authority. God The Father is superior to Jesus and The Holy Spirit.
If they are One without any exception,
then when Elisabeth calls The Virgin Mary
"mother of my Lord",
she is literally calling Mary The Mother of God.
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Post by knuckle on Apr 10, 2008 20:34:41 GMT -5
It is an enigma a paradox a box with in a box with in a box
Jesus said "I am the Truth,the Way and the Life no man comes to the Father but by me"
and Jesus also said No man cometh to me lest the Father draw him
and If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself
speaking to the 12 Jesus said you have not chosen me but I have chosen you
but prays I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine
Creation was a gift between Father and Son made for each other and given to each other
much love-------------knuckle
PS-----the Father begot the Son,not the other way round
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 12, 2008 19:41:09 GMT -5
"John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
"Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
"John 10:30 I and my Father are one."
Jesus is God. Through the death of Christ a true Christian has complete access to all three members of the Godhead. They are the three in one. The veil of the temple is rent for the true Christian.
"John 16:26-27 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."
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Post by Cepha on Apr 12, 2008 20:03:58 GMT -5
Your too easy. That's talking about since the beginning of time.
That's for our benefit. For God, there is no time.
But no one comes to Jesus unless God brings them to Jesus. It is because of God The Father (not Jesus The Son) that one comes to The Son.
The Father has authority over The Son. That's why Jesus is called "Son".
Where in The Bible has a son ever had authority over his father?
Never.
Matter of fact, the commandment says "honor thy father", not "honor thy son".
John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
God sent Jesus (because God The Father is superior to Jesus The Son) and unless God The Father draws one, one cannot come to Jesus.
Therefore, God The Father runs God The Son.
The Son doesn't tell The Father what to do.
The Father tells The Son what to do.
God brings one to Christ, not Christ.
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 12, 2008 20:28:45 GMT -5
"John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." "John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." "1 Peter 1: 19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," True. But they are still equal. The NT teaches that the husband is in authority over his wife too. That doesn't mean the wife is inferior. They are indeed equal. Just different roles. I don't think you understand the meaning of "one".  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 12, 2008 21:34:19 GMT -5
Wrong. Adam was created to serve God. Eve to serve Adam. Thus is the relationship status between man and woman. As for "one" if we were "one" according to your definition of it with God and Jesus, then we would be God ourselves...so I think you definition of "one" is a little rigid. Remember, when we receive His Body and Blood, we become "one" with Him (Jesus). Does this automatically make us equal to Him?  |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 12, 2008 21:41:26 GMT -5
No, your wrong.
"Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."
:1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.:
Your doctrine. Not mine.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 12, 2008 22:03:57 GMT -5
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 12, 2008 22:23:31 GMT -5
Don't tell me that doesn't mean equal with different positions to you?
Wrong. Sin came by Adam.
"1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."[/quote]
Wrong. Those verses you quoted neither say nor imply that. There is a big difference between "abiding in" and being "one".
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 8:00:18 GMT -5
DISCLAIMER: SORRY...WHEN I RESPONDED TO THIS POST, I MISTAKENLY TOOK OUT TWO SCRIPTURAL VERSES THAT WERE USED TO PROVE A POINT BY RESPONDING WITH THE MODIFY BUTTON INSTEAD OF WITH THE QUOTE BUTTON. I'VE REPOSTED EVERYTHING IN THE ORIGINAL POST, EXCEPT THOSE TWO POSTS. YOU ARE WELCOMED TO REPOST THEM AND I'LL ANSWER THEM TOO. If their equal, how does Eve belong "to" Adam? Love from where you took that passage! The forbiddence of women teachers in the church and why men are "not" to be led by women! That's the "context" of the whole passage! LOL! If men and women were equal, how could The Word of God state that she is "not" to teach man? 1 Timoty 2 ("in" context)
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.That looks like "equal" to you? Boy...you're a prime example of how Protestants take one verse out of the context of it's passage and make an entire new belief out of it completely ignoring the passage from which it was taken. By the way...do you believe in women teachers (pastors) in your church? Read Romans 5 in context! Yes, sin came into the world through Adam...he is responsible for Eve's work because Eve is his! LOL! Is this a joke? Am I being punked? Where's Ashton Kutcher? LOL! When that scripture says "one man" do you mean that Eve is off the hook? Who do you think sinned first? Adam or Eve? Look at the order of God's condemnation: Satan first (Satan is condemned for misleading Eve!) Eve second (Eve is condemned for following Satan!) Adam last (Adam is condemned for following his wife! Eve!) That is the order in which they sinned. Satan led Eve into sin, but it was Eve who led Adam into sin. Genesis 3
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Really now? What you're saying is that Jesus could be "in" you, but isn't "one" with you? Jesus uses that same word to describe the "oneness" that He and God are: John 17:23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me."It's only "one" when Jesus talks about God abiding "in" Him?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 8:01:09 GMT -5
So, if we become one with Jesus, are we equal to Him?
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Post by alfie on Apr 15, 2008 8:49:18 GMT -5
Catholics have always placed God before Jesus. Protestants always talk about God The Son and almost never talk about God (which is clearly provable just by scanning these threads). We've always believed that it is God Who chooses one to come to Him and Who opens one's heart to Him and He uses Jesus as that path. What do you think? One has to go to Jesus "first" to go to God? Or is it God Who brings you to Him and Jesus is just a "vessel" to God? Before you answer however, I think in the interest of fairness, I should arm you with this verse; John 6:65 And he said, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." This is true and that is because Jesus is our mediator. The Bible says no one comes to the father except through the son. |
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Post by alfie on Apr 15, 2008 8:58:51 GMT -5
Both The Holy Spirit and Jesus are subject to God The Father. They didn't create Him, they preceeded "from" God The Father. There is no equality in authority. God The Father is superior to Jesus and The Holy Spirit. The Orthodox wouldn't agree with your comment and I don't see where one is superior to another. The Trinity is kinda like water, water can be in the form of ice, steam or liquid and yet all three elements are made of H2O they just have different functions. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 13:53:44 GMT -5
Both The Holy Spirit and Jesus are subject to God The Father. They didn't create Him, they preceeded "from" God The Father. There is no equality in authority. God The Father is superior to Jesus and The Holy Spirit. The Orthodox wouldn't agree with your comment and I don't see where one is superior to another. The Trinity is kinda like water, water can be in the form of ice, steam or liquid and yet all three elements are made of H2O they just have different functions. As steam, you can't drink water. So water would be better to drink. It is a superior dehydrator when compared to steam. And ultimately, ice and steam are forms "of" water. Steam or ice don't appear by themselves, yet water can appear where water and ice once where. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 13:56:15 GMT -5
Catholics have always placed God before Jesus. Protestants always talk about God The Son and almost never talk about God (which is clearly provable just by scanning these threads). We've always believed that it is God Who chooses one to come to Him and Who opens one's heart to Him and He uses Jesus as that path. What do you think? One has to go to Jesus "first" to go to God? Or is it God Who brings you to Him and Jesus is just a "vessel" to God? Before you answer however, I think in the interest of fairness, I should arm you with this verse; John 6:65 And he said, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." This is true and that is because Jesus is our mediator. The Bible says no one comes to the father except through the son. That's only because God The Father brings them to The Son. God The Father first...Jesus second. |
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Post by stelzneri on Apr 15, 2008 17:19:33 GMT -5
She "belongs" to him only in the same way he "belongs" to her.
LOL I already stated that. There are different positions. Neither is superior to the other. They are different with different strengths and weaknesses.
No. That is unbiblical. ;D
So with that faulty logic why was satan responsible? Did he "belong" to Eve? lol...
Adam was responsible because he CHOSE to sin. Eve was DECIEVED. Adam was not.
Right.
Being "one" with God is a pagan idea. Christ is in us. We are NOT "one" with him. If we were "one" every time we sin God sins. That is not the case.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 21:05:40 GMT -5
Amazing...you just called scripture a pagan idea. Very well. LOOK OUT! |
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