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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 1, 2008 16:15:00 GMT -5
"This Forum is a solid condemnation of those who claim to speak in Jesus' name, but do evil in His name."
While we may have authority to "condemn" certain behaviors or heresies, but we must be careful not to condemn the person, only God can do that, for only He is free of sin and guilt, free to throw the stones.
Remember, even, that the Church has never "canonized" a person in Hell, as She canonizes saints in Heaven. Not even those we regard as heretics, those excommunicated, not even Judas has been "placed" in Hell by the Church.
We, however, are called out and commanded to call out, rebuke, and correct.
Jesus, through the Bible, tells us that if our brother is in the wrong, we call out to him and rebuke him, if he doesn't listen, we take him to other people, if not then, we take him to the Church, and if not then, then we treat him like a Gentile (see Matt 18:17, which is one of the Scriptural basis of excommunication)
We also see St. Paul opposing St. Peter "to his face" because St. Peter was "clearly on the wrong" (not doctrinally but in behavior, but still in need of reproof.
In the same way, we can condemn the behaviors of people with one of our hands but with the other we offer God's grace and strenght, just as Jesus extends His forgiving and healing hand to the sinners such as Mary Magdalene, yet with the other hand commands them not to sin again.
Pax Christi.
Juan J.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 1, 2008 21:31:48 GMT -5
Where does it say we take him/her to the "church"?
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 2, 2008 0:31:06 GMT -5
Where does it say we take him/her to the "church"? Matthew 18:17 (15-18 in context) --- Still that's not the point of this thread. It is only used to prove a bigger point, that we are to call out our brothers in charity and rebuke them with authority but charity. We can "condamn" their actions, perhaps, but we do not have authority nor power to condamn a person. Only Jesus can. |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 3, 2008 7:36:01 GMT -5
I don't think that means one church in particular...probably just the body of believers.
We have no place to comdenm people...but yes, rebukeing is very Biblical and I've done it before. Not very much fun, let me tell you....
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 14:00:54 GMT -5
In Jesus' time and up to the Reformation, the term "the church" only meant one church.
Right now Roman Catholicism still uses it as in the sense of Jesus' time and the early Church. Which is the best interpretation that can be given.
Why? Because it seems weird to "tell it to the church" if the Church does not agree within itself.
It makes little sense to label someone a heretic for not believing in Infant Baptism (which many Protestants believe), for example, since many Protestants do not believe in this.
With the Catholic Church it is not so. There is an absolute, there is a norm, there is catholicity: doctrines and morals are the same everywhere all the same.
Perhaps we should continue a study on that verse, maybe on the "Holy Bible" section...
Pax Christi
Juan J.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 3, 2008 14:30:39 GMT -5
I believe the absolute should be the Bible  |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 14:57:34 GMT -5
You keep ignoring all the points being made, Emily.
The Bible is authoritative, the written Word of God, but it never claims to be the only authority, it never claims to be the pillar and foundation of the truth. It actually points to "the Church" more than once.
Also, I didn't say the Church was the absolute, but that the Catholic Church has absolutes, that is, its teachings in faith and morals never change and are the same everywhere everytime.
With Protestantism there is no absolute but much relativism. Some Protestant groups use "the Bible alone" to justify their use of contraception, or abortion, of homosexual acts.
How could one to to "the Church" when "the Church" disagrees so greatly?
This is why this verse fits so perfectly with Catholic theology.
---
I used the example of excommunication and Matt 18:17 only as a means to get to a bigger point.
We can surely keep talkin about that particular verse, but it would be more appropiate to place it in "The Church" section of this Forum.
Pax Christi,
Juan J.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 3, 2008 15:02:20 GMT -5
There's a verse...something like "let every man be a liar, but the Word of God Truth" or something like that. That's why I say I beleive no one but the Bible....because we are all liars |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 15:30:51 GMT -5
Emily, I'm going to make a new thread for Romans 3:4 that you cited.
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 15:31:18 GMT -5
It will be in "Holy Scriptures"
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Post by Cepha on Apr 8, 2008 12:59:19 GMT -5
"This Forum is a solid condemnation of those who claim to speak in Jesus' name, but do evil in His name." While we may have authority to "condemn" certain behaviors or heresies, but we must be careful not to condemn the person, only God can do that, for only He is free of sin and guilt, free to throw the stones. Remember, even, that the Church has never "canonized" a person in Hell, as She canonizes saints in Heaven. Not even those we regard as heretics, those excommunicated, not even Judas has been "placed" in Hell by the Church. We, however, are called out and commanded to call out, rebuke, and correct. Jesus, through the Bible, tells us that if our brother is in the wrong, we call out to him and rebuke him, if he doesn't listen, we take him to other people, if not then, we take him to the Church, and if not then, then we treat him like a Gentile (see Matt 18:17, which is one of the Scriptural basis of excommunication) We also see St. Paul opposing St. Peter "to his face" because St. Peter was "clearly on the wrong" (not doctrinally but in behavior, but still in need of reproof. In the same way, we can condemn the behaviors of people with one of our hands but with the other we offer God's grace and strenght, just as Jesus extends His forgiving and healing hand to the sinners such as Mary Magdalene, yet with the other hand commands them not to sin again. Pax Christi. Juan J. The victim of a injustice has the right to condemn his victimizer. |
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