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Post by alfie on Apr 12, 2008 17:47:47 GMT -5
Show me any writing by any Apostle that supports what the ECFS and the Catholic Church teach. You know doctrines like the sinlessness of Mary, purgatory, etc and don't give me this oral tradition crap. The Apostles wrote the Bible. Kinda funny they wouldn't have written down one little iota of Catholic doctrine if it's that important for peoples salvation.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 12, 2008 22:57:01 GMT -5
Show me any writing by any Apostle that supports what the ECFS and the Catholic Church teach. You know doctrines like the sinlessness of Mary, purgatory, etc and don't give me this oral tradition crap. The Apostles wrote the Bible. Kinda funny they wouldn't have written down one little iota of Catholic doctrine if it's that important for peoples salvation. Backwards. The Apostles don't support The Church Fathers. The Church Fathers support the Apostles. Duh? That's like me asking "show me where in The Bible it says we can use computers with Vista to debate". Computers didn't exist back then. Neither did the CF's. Then again, neither did The Bible! LOL! ;D Why don't you ask a better question like where the Doctrine of Salvation comes from? ;D |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 14, 2008 0:05:57 GMT -5
alfie seems to think the Bible is not a Catholic book containing nothing about Catholicism.... Eucharist, Mary, priests, bishops, deacons, veneration of martyrs (saints), the Pope, the hierarchy of the Church, the Church, Tradition, saved by faith and works, etc...  Pax Christi |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 14, 2008 0:15:15 GMT -5
Eucharist.
John 6: "My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink"
St. Ignatius of Antioch: "I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ...and for drink I desire his blood" and "[the heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ"
St. Justin Martyr: "For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these [the bread and wine]...the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him...is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus"
St. Ireneaues: "If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?"
"the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist"
And all these in the 2nd century...
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 14, 2008 0:18:32 GMT -5
Mary Mother of God [Theotokos].
Luke 1: "how come the Mother of my Lord would come to me?"
St. Hippolytus: "preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men"
Gregory the Wonderworker: "For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David"
Cyril of Jerusalem: "The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).
Ephraim the Syrian: "Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).
Athanasius: "The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 14, 2008 0:18:39 GMT -5
Shall we continue?
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 6:33:37 GMT -5
alfie seems to think the Bible is not a Catholic book containing nothing about Catholicism.... Eucharist, Mary, priests, bishops, deacons, veneration of martyrs (saints), the Pope, the hierarchy of the Church, the Church, Tradition, saved by faith and works, etc... Pax Christi  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 15, 2008 6:34:14 GMT -5
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Post by alfie on Apr 16, 2008 16:15:45 GMT -5
A few questions 1. How many ECFS were there 2. Are they the actual founders of the Catholic Church 3. Did they elect the first pope 4. Did they all live during the same time period 5. If they learned from the Apostles did the apostles write any of this Catholic doctrine in additional books besides the Bible. If not ...why not 6. When there are differences in doctrine between ECFS how did they decide which teachings would be used by the church. For example there is an Orthodox priest named Father Ambrose who posts on Catholic Answers. In one of his posts he listed all of the ECFS that did not believe that Peter was the first pope or that they even supported the concept of a pope. If there were that many ECFS that did not support a pope in the church than who made the final decision on the issue. Than there is the question of Catholic doctrine. It always seems to be evolving. I thought I read that confession to a priest wasn't instituted by the Catholic church until the Council of Trent. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 16, 2008 16:53:46 GMT -5
alfie
A few questions
1. How many ECFS were there
About 50.
2. Are they the actual founders of the Catholic Church
No. Peter is.
3. Did they elect the first pope
The first Pope was appointed by Jesus. The 2nd was appointed by the Bishops and Cardinals. I believe that was Linus or Evaristus.
4. Did they all live during the same time period
From 30's AD - 400's AD
5. If they learned from the Apostles did the apostles write any of this Catholic doctrine in additional books besides the Bible. If not ...why not
Yes...The Didache. And there were no books back then. No binding. Just documents.
6. When there are differences in doctrine between ECFS how did they decide which teachings would be used by the church.
The Magistarium (the Bishops/Cardinals) would vote on issues.
Than there is the question of Catholic doctrine. It always seems to be evolving.
Same as Jesus' teachings. First He came only for the Jews, but then He evoloved and then taught the Gospel to all men who'd come to Him. He literally "evolved".
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Post by Cepha on Jul 12, 2008 9:44:26 GMT -5
Wow...this had the potential to become a great thread!
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jul 14, 2008 22:24:07 GMT -5
to bad she could not handle it
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