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Post by alfie on May 9, 2008 9:46:32 GMT -5
I don't feel right hearing just the name Mary. I always call her The Blessed Mother. "All generations will call me blessed". I feel others call her as if she's just the girl next door. Blessed isn't some regal title given to her by God. Blessed means happy. |
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Post by alfie on May 9, 2008 9:48:41 GMT -5
I don't feel right hearing just the name Mary. I always call her The Blessed Mother. "All generations will call me blessed". I feel others call her as if she's just the girl next door. I wonder what those that don't believe in The Blessed Mother as most Christians have for thousands of years are going to do when they face her in heaven? If Mary is such a big shot then why did God send an angel to tell her about Jesus? Why didn't he directly speak to her like he did to Moses and Abraham? |
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2008 10:38:20 GMT -5
I don't feel right hearing just the name Mary. I always call her The Blessed Mother. "All generations will call me blessed". I feel others call her as if she's just the girl next door. Blessed isn't some regal title given to her by God. Blessed means happy. Actually, blessed means a lot more than just happy: bless·ed –adjective 1. consecrated; sacred; holy; sanctified: the Blessed Sacrament. 2. worthy of adoration, reverence, or worship: the Blessed Trinity. 3. divinely or supremely favored; fortunate: to be blessed with a strong, healthy body; blessed with an ability to find friends. 4. blissfully happy or contented. 5. Roman Catholic Church. beatified. 6. bringing happiness and thankfulness: the blessed assurance of a steady income. 7. Informal. damned: I'm blessed if I know. 8. Informal. (used as an intensifier): every blessed cent. All the highlited definitions apply to The Blessed Mother of Christ. |
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2008 10:40:58 GMT -5
Jesus honored Mary.
Plus, God didn't directly speak to Jesus either...
...does that make Moses or Abraham bigger shots than Jesus?
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Post by knuckle on May 9, 2008 15:31:12 GMT -5
Plus, God didn't directly speak to Jesus either...
...does that make Moses or Abraham bigger shots than Jesus?
ahem---did we think about this before writing it Cepha?
much love------------------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2008 16:17:17 GMT -5
Plus, God didn't directly speak to Jesus either... ...does that make Moses or Abraham bigger shots than Jesus? ahem---did we think about this before writing it Cepha? much love------------------------knuckle Hey, she was the one who tried to use someone being spoken to by God as a measurement of importance...what will she answer my response to her? Is there any scripture that states that God spoke to Jesus directly? And if there's not, by her measurement, does that make Jesus less important than Abraham or Moses? God spoke to Satan directly. Is he a "hot shot" now? Do you see the unreasonableness in her assertion? |
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Post by knuckle on May 9, 2008 17:42:01 GMT -5
Well being as Jesus is the Word the very voice of God it was Christ speaking to Abe and Moses
much love--------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2008 17:58:44 GMT -5
Well being as Jesus is the Word the very voice of God it was Christ speaking to Abe and Moses much love--------------knuckle That wasn't the inference by Alfie. She suggested that Mary wasn't such a hot shot (my translation is that this is a discrespectful manner of saying she wasn't anybody of importance or worthy of notariety) because God didn't speak to her directly. My question was...did God speak to Jesus directly? Is there a scripture that shows God speaking to God directly. We know that Jesus prays to God, but did God ever speak to Jesus directly the same way that God spoke to Abraham and to Moses? That question still hasn't been answered. |
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Post by knuckle on May 9, 2008 19:30:02 GMT -5
Cepha------------------
Mary was a chosen vessel to bring God incarnate into this world----A unique one of a kind miracle.
I have been reading your posts and I agree that she was highly favored among women and blessed but it was because she was chosen----it was the event that made her those things
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luk 1:51 He hath showed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
Luk 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Luk 1:54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed forever.
Brother,I love you,God knows I do but there is something that I must make evident --- I hope you can accept what I have to say.
To be the Messiah Jesus had to be born "of the flesh" to be in Adam,this idea that Mary was immaculately conceived detracts from that.
Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
this is confirmed by the genealogy in Luke----Heli is Mary's father
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
Why? so that He(Christ) could be made sin(born of a woman and under the law) who knew no sin
It was no coincidence or happenstance that Mary and Joseph were chosen,it was their faith and ability to be good loving Godly parents to Jesus that they were given this honor but they were human.I praise God for them and the example they (Mary especially) set and yes Jesus loved her very much but she was flesh and blood.
much love----------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2008 20:39:42 GMT -5
Same here brother.
No...to be The Son of Man Jesus had to be born of man.
Mary's state of sinlessness has nothing to do with His being born of a woman.
No where in the scriptures does it the state of sin of the woman who gives birth to Jesus is specified or is it's importance mentioned.
Remember, Jesus was born sinless and became sin. If He would've been born of a sinful woman, He would've been sinful too.
Mary (a descendent of David) makes Jesus the fruit of David's loins because His flesh was given to Him by her (Him having no biological father to contribute to his physical make up means that His blood and flesh and blood was all Mary's...this is the reversal of Eve being formed of Adam which resulted in sin...this time, The Son of Man was formed from woman and that resulted in salvation).
Scripture that states that He had to be born of sin?
The Bible states that He was born sinless and "became" sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
That's a beautiful sentiment and I'd like to add that it was that same flesh and blood that Jesus shed and had tortured because Her flesh was His flesh.
She alone gave Him ever ounce of flesh and every drop of blood He had...nobody else.
Pax.
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Post by knuckle on May 9, 2008 21:06:20 GMT -5
Brother,
Jer 18:1
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2
Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3
Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
All of God's "clay vessels" are "marred [while yet] in the hand of the Potter." That is because God has not yet finished "making man in His image." What that verse should read is "Let us be making man in our image." The first step in that process is to make a "marred vessel of clay." It was the result of being in this sad, "marred, naked, dusty" condition, while yet "in the hand of the Potter" that caused Adam and Eve to succumb to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the heart and the pride of life before they ever ate of the tree of life.
1 John 2:16
For all [sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Flesh itself misses the mark of the Christ we are now to know after the spirit(for we go beyond Him crucified). So Adam, by virtue of being flesh, is sin and needs a sacrifice for what he IS, before he ever does anything. As soon as Adam does something he is then also in need of another sacrifice for what he did. So God has given us a "sin offering," for the flesh that we are. But He has also provided a "trespass offering," for what we do in "the body of this death." Adam sinned because he was in a "body of this death." He sinned because he was dying. He did not begin dying because he sinned. The lie of the serpent "thou shalt not surly die," has man thinking the opposite of the Word of God to this very day. Adam was dying when he drew his first breath:
1 Cor 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
"Flesh and blood" are synonymous in scripture with "corruption." Adam was "corruptible and in corruption" from the time he drew his first breath. That is why he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam was created with a fleshly mind. Adam was created of the dust. He was created with an earthly carnal mind. He was "a vessel of clay marred in the hand Of the Potter."
This is "the made sin" Christ-- it was the very "flesh and blood" of Mary through Adam.It being flesh misses the mark.Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. This statement is as true for Christ as it was for David.
much love--------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 4:59:27 GMT -5
[quote author=knuckle \
So, Jesus is marred too? I mean , He is part of that "all" you use for mankind, right? Especially His being The "Son" of Man automatically inheriting that "marrness", right?
No...he began to die because he sinned. Death was the wage of his sin (not the other way around). Death was introduced into the line of man with his sentence for his sin:
Genesis 3
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
Pax
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Post by knuckle on May 10, 2008 6:18:34 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------
Had Adam been perfect(as some folks insist)then he would not have sinned.Remember Christ is the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world before Adam was ever shaped in God's hand the remedy to the fall was already planned out
Oh and the ground wasn't cursed as a punishment it was done "for thy sake",it was a mercy of God
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:10 Called of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Faith and obedience reshaped the marred vessel
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.
Jesus didn't come in perfection looking like a man He came as a man and was perfected
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh(all flesh,including His own) is weak.
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
faith and obedience though He had a way out
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Joh 13:28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
Joh 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
Joh 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Joh 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
Joh 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
Can you see what I am saying?
much love--------------knuckle
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Post by alfie on May 10, 2008 11:01:59 GMT -5
Jesus honored Mary. Plus, God didn't directly speak to Jesus either... ...does that make Moses or Abraham bigger shots than Jesus? Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". |
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Post by alfie on May 10, 2008 11:09:12 GMT -5
Plus, God didn't directly speak to Jesus either... ...does that make Moses or Abraham bigger shots than Jesus? ahem---did we think about this before writing it Cepha? much love------------------------knuckle Hey, she was the one who tried to use someone being spoken to by God as a measurement of importance...what will she answer my response to her? Is there any scripture that states that God spoke to Jesus directly? And if there's not, by her measurement, does that make Jesus less important than Abraham or Moses? God spoke to Satan directly. Is he a "hot shot" now? Do you see the unreasonableness in her assertion? Lets talk about Mary. The Bible says that through the seed (Holy Spirit) of the woman mankind would be saved. The seed is masculine. Normally a woman has an ova (or egg) that is fertilized by a man... but not in this case. The seed was planted in her by the Holy Spirit. The seed isn't even part of her natural body or reproductive system like an egg would be. |
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 11:26:58 GMT -5
Plus, God didn't directly speak to Jesus either... ...does that make Moses or Abraham bigger shots than Jesus? Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". I don't understand...? What are you trying to say with this verse here? |
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 11:31:15 GMT -5
Hang on there Sexy...First, let's get past the assertions you made that if God didn't talk to someone directly, their not a hot shot.
One thing at a time...there'll be no skipping here.
You said that because God didn't talk to Mary directly, she wasn't of any importance (a "hot shot"). Right?
So, what does that say about Jesus who wasn't addressed by God directly?
This isn't about taking the focus off of Mary, but of you substantiating your claim with regards to Mary.
One step at a time...
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 11:39:08 GMT -5
And let me make this annoucement here and in the general board.
In following the lead of my good Cyber Friend and Brother in Christ, JHardin, I am going to from now on begin holding people accountable for their posts.
Meaning, that if you just come here and post to engage in a debate, but then don't debate, you'll be stopped from posting.
Period.
There are too many time wasters coming here, opening up cans of worms, then running.
This is a "debate" forum aong other things.
So from now on, if you don't answer questions directly, you won't be allowed to post.
Anybody (Catholic or Protestant or Other).
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 11:52:07 GMT -5
Amen. Adam was "not" peferct. You sure that Adam isn't the ground that was cursed? As he was created from soil. Faith and obedience reshaped the marred vessel I believe that Jesus was Perfect from His placement "in" Mary. Ok, then this is a instance that the word "all" includes Jesus...then does that mean that Jesus is part of the "all" when some use the verse "all have sinned" to disprove Mary's state of grace? Does this mean that Jesus sinned too? Or is it "different" in that particular instance? And if it is...how is this distinguished from the other? As for Jesus' flesh being weak, I've never seen any instance where His flesh was weak. Do you have any scriptures that say this? I've only seen him to do what Adam wasn't able to do...to overcome temptation from Satan when He was tempted. But never knew Jesus to have sinned. I'm sorry. I cannot. But I do look forward to the answers for the questions I asked.  Pax |
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Post by knuckle on May 10, 2008 13:09:03 GMT -5
Hi ya Cepha-----------------
2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:(because flesh is sin and the wages of sin is...)
2 Cor 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.(rose not in the flesh but into the Spiritual body)
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Cor 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Watch this part--- " ...he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them..."
But notice what we are told in verse 16:
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more [after the flesh].
Why are we told "henceforth know we [him] no more [after the flesh]?" Here is why we are told that we are not to "know Him... after the flesh:"
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Does this answer your questions?
"He resembled us, without being like us, just like the Old Testament shadows resembled Jesus, without being like Him".
As those Old Testament shadows portray, Christ, He was through us guilty of "being worthy of death and hanging on a tree."
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
This verse and Hebrews 2:14 cited above, tells us that "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He Himself took part of the same [flesh and blood]." If it had been any other type of flesh and blood Christ could not have identified with "the children" and His sacrifice would have not been for sins committed in " the same...flesh and blood."
In the sense that Christ was "without sin" He was unlike us. But in the sense that He "took part of the same...sinful...flesh and blood," He was exactly like us.It is this aspect that makes Him our KINSMAN REDEEMER.
Christ is foreshadowed in the fact that the nation of ancient Israel was given both a sin offering for the fact that God had created mankind in a horribly "marred," destroyed and dying condition, not because of anything Adam did, but simply because of the earthy composition with which the Creator has begun His creation; with "dust of the ground," and not yet "conformed to the image of His [spiritual] Son." Christ came in "the same... flesh and blood... of the children." That was the same "flesh and blood which cannot inherit the kingdom of God." ----Not even the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. Hence:
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
the next few verses give us the "why" of it
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Cor 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
'The words 'to be' are not in the Greek and are not inspired of God. Leave them out. "He made Him sin for us, who knew no sin..."
What are the "old things which have passed away?" Verse 16 has just told us that it is what we have "known" that has changed:
"...though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more [after the flesh]."
are you ready for this ?Cause it is a life changing truth....
Old things have passed away behold all things are become new" is speaking specifically of the things we once "knew" to be true. The Truth is that what Christ Himself once called the manna, "bread from heaven." Even though "all things are of God" (verse 18) including the temporal shadows of the law of Moses, the body casting that shadow, the Christ who was not "after the flesh," declares to us: "Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but My Father gives you that true bread from heaven."
Here are the words of Christ(The Word) to Moses:
Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
What now, are the "but I say unto you" words of the Christ of the "change also of the law...written not with ink..." New Testament"? They certainly are not the words He spoke unto Moses. They are rather the words of a reformer:
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Heb 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them [only] until the time of reformation
"Old things have passed away, behold all things have become new," is just as true today for the doctrines of Babylon as they were true for the doctrines of Moses in the days when Christ was "known in the flesh" by His apostles. And one of those Babylonian doctrines which is accepted by the whole orthodox Christian world is that Christ's flesh was not "the same... sinful flesh... as the children" (Heb. 2:14 and Rom. 8:3). But what say the scriptures on this subject?
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
All flesh, including the flesh of Christ, falls far short of the spiritual bodies God has waiting for all of His creation in it's time and place. All flesh is "marred in the hand of the Potter before it ever draws its first breath
It is a hard thing to accept while in the flesh that the condition of being "in the flesh" is sin but it is what the bible teaches
much love---------------knuckle
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