"praying to the dead"?
When we address these issues first, then we can switch the conversation.
No one ever said the dead pray for us. Why are you trying to introduce that into this discussion? We're talking about Marian intercession here. She's not dead. She was seen in Heaven by John in his vision. And anyone in heaven is alive.
Don't you know that there are no dead Saints? When Saints stop living, they only "sleep". The Dead are those who don't have Christ in them. And as we all know, Mary certainly had Christ in her...not just spiritually, but literally and physically.
Besides, The Bible never said that Mary died. If it does, could you please point out the scripture and verse?
[
Insert scripture & verse that states that Mary died here ]
We can start a new thread if you want, but please, let's leave the dead out of a discussion on intercessory prayer and the mediation of Christ.
"
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Roget's II: The New Thesaurus
Main Entry:
holy Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: Regarded with particular reverence or respect.
Synonyms:
blessed, hallowed, sacred, sacrosanct
thesaurus.reference.com/browse/holy?From a Protestant website:
"The saints, according to the Bible, are the "
holy ones"—
hagioi in the original Greek. These have accepted Christ by faith and have dedicated themselves to God and His service. Today we would call them believers or Christians, rather than saints or
holy ones. We would also speak of them as in the process of sanctification, rather than as having been sanctified."
In The KJV, whenever you see Paul calling someone a "saint", he is calling them a "holy one" (in the original greek, the word 'hagioi' isn't "saint", but "holy one")
www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/justified/just13-sanctification.htmFrom a Protestant website:
Philippians 1:1-2
Introduction
Date and Occasion
Paul writes from prison (1:12-30). And it seems probable that this letter was written during his imprisonment in Caesarea (Acts 23:23-26:32).
The city of Philippi was named for Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great. It is located on the main road between the eastern provinces and Rome. It was a Roman colony populated in party by retired Roman soldiers.
Paul’s ministry (Acts 16) eventual led to might works and a church was established. This was Paul’s first establishment on European soil. Paul in fact returned two more occasions to strenghthen the believers (Acts 20:1-6; 2 Cor 2:13).
Exhortation
We are Jesus’ bondservants.
And this is what Paul has realized. The reason why he is calling Christians the holy ones is because Jesus Christ became a slave to make them holy. And this is the gospel which Paul has come to preach. Paul preached Christ who was crucified. More so, one who has forsaken the glory of heaven and humbled himself. But most importantly, Paul and all of us have become saints because Christ made Himself of no reputation, taking a form of a bondservant (2:7).
64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:vBGnQSiavAYJ:www.covenantworship.net/Bondservants%2520of%2520Jesus%2520Christ%2520ch%25201%25201-2.doc+Paul+now+calls+the+church+the+saints,+the+holy+ones&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Nobody ever said he did. Point?
Why are you repeating what I already said?
And that's a change from your previous position that there was only one intervener: "because there is
one that
intervens for us and pleads our case before the Father daily,"
The catechism on the veneration of Mary?
?
Do you mean the doctrine?
If you mean the doctrine, that began to be revealed as early as th 2nd century, after the Church's persecution was halted by Constantine The Great and she could settle down and begin to work out the belief systems Christianity would come to embrace.
Along with that came The Doctrines of The Trinity and The Doctrines of Salvation.
Here are some of The Church Fathers who canonized The Holy Bible and what they said about the veneration of The Blessed Mother in the 4th Century:
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Hilary of Poitiers
"If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
"And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
"[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
"We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
"It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
"You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king" (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
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As for the doctrine of Marion Devotion (again, assuming that that's what you mean since there exists no "catechism" on Mariology) was revealed in the 2nd Century as you can see by the quotes I've provided (and that's just on her perpetual virginity...I'm not even including the rest of the quotes because there would be too many to list here).
Mary was always loved and revered by Christianity...since it's inception.
____________________________________________________
Speaking of "tidbits", how do you feel about Calvin's, Zwingli's and Martin Luther's views on The Blessed Mother that oppose yours?
Are you sure you want to leave that statement open like that??? If Yeshua is just "a mediator" then He died for nothing... I pray you can clear that up...
