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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 5:49:28 GMT -5
Here, Jesus quotes from and references The Holy Bible that some believe The Catholic Church created "after" Jesus:
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 5:50:55 GMT -5
The Word of God
In many ways, I do not seem to understand what the conflict about biblical origins and valid types occur. It seems that every time I turn around there is some type of argument as to where the bible came from, who composed it, and what books of the bible are valid.
The odd thing is that many pages on the web only tell about the "start" of the "true" version of the bible which is usually stated to be the King James Version of the bible. I find this extremely odd to find that many protestants think that the bible was originally translated by King James of England.
What we need to do is to trace historical documents and timelines to go further back than King James and see where the true origins are of biblical texts.
The first thing one must understand about the bible is that the bible is not simply just one complete book that someone decided to sit down one day and write.
The bible as a whole was written over the course of over 1500 years. The ancient Jewish people had hand written copies written upon lamb skin.
They used lamb skin because paper had not yet become invented for the most part, and the paper that did exist rarely lasted any length of time.
The Greeks, Egyptians, and the population of Asia mostly around China were the only people who had even made paper for most of the world's early history.
During the Babylonian captivity, many Jewish scrolls and writings were lost. The Jewish people were prosecuted if they even kept a copy in their home. (This also occurred during the invasion of Antiochus as recorded in 2Maccabees).
Many people fled out to Egypt and Greece (specifically Athens and Alexandria which were the two largest cities in the ancient world and the largest cities of learning anywhere in the known world). Now during this time many of the Jewish people re-wrote many of the ancient writings they had gathered while fleeing the tyrannical rules of other attacking nations.
Another explanation is even more simple than the first. Alexandria and Athens were considered the great learning centers of the world. Almost what you would call a "Harvard" being a very prestigious learning center.
The great library of Alexandria and the great philosophers that came out of Athens are only small and brief proof that this existed in ancient middle east. What eventually occurred were different versions of Old Testament scripture.
One being the original Hebrew Old Testament and the newer version of the Greek or Alexandrian scripts known as the Septuagint. The collected writings of the Septuagint were all put together around the year 285 BC.
So from this time on, there were two different versions of scripture. Both of them considered just as valid as the other.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 5:52:06 GMT -5
During the time of Christ, both of these versions existed. When Jesus himself quoted scripture, he quoted from both versions. Examples of this are:
" 'If you love me, you will keep my commandments.' Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, 'Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?' Jesus answered and said to him, 'Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.' "
(John 14:15,23,24)
"Woe to craven hearts and drooping hands, to the sinner who treads a double path! Woe to the faint of heart who trust not, who therefore will have no shelter! Woe to you who have lost hope! what will you do at the visitation of the LORD? Those who fear the LORD disobey not his words; those who love him keep his ways. Those who fear the LORD seek to please him, those who love him are filled with his law."
(Sirach 2:13-16)
Here Jesus is talking about keeping the Lord's ways and he will come into him. Sirach is a carbon copy of what Jesus says here. The book of Sirach on this particular passage is a listing of sayings such as those in Proverbs. Jesus himself quotes almost word for word what this passage states. Take notice of the parallels in Sirach as to the "visitation of the Lord" and he comparisons of Loving the Lord and obeying the Lord.
"Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one. If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions."
(Mathew 6:11-14)
"The vengeful will suffer the LORD'S vengeance, for he remembers their sins in detail. Forgive your neighbor's injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven. Should a man nourish anger against his fellows and expect healing from the LORD? Should a man refuse mercy to his fellows, yet seek pardon for his own sins? If he who is but flesh cherishes wrath, who will forgive his sins?"
(Sirach 28:1-5)
Here we see a sharp parallel between the Lord's prayer and the book of Sirach. It almost looks like a direct quotation based upon the basic truth that if you do not forgive your brother, then God will not forgive you.
"Those passing by reviled him, shaking their heads and saying, "You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself, if you are the Son of God, (and) come down from the cross!" Likewise the chief priests with the scribes and elders mocked him and said, "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! 25 Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. 26 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.'" The revolutionaries who were crucified with him also kept abusing him in the same way."
(Matthew 27:39-44)
"Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD. To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us."
(Wisdom 2:12-14)
Here we see a very prophetic work about Jesus and how the people mocked Jesus at his crucifixion. It seems to be rather close together as Isaiah was when he professed about Jesus' coming.
"And he said, 'This is what I shall do: I shall tear down my barns and build larger ones. There I shall store all my grain and other goods and I shall say to myself, "Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!" But God said to him, 'You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?'"
(Luke 12:18-20)
"The LORD'S gift remains with the just; his favor brings continued success. A man may become rich through a miser's life, and this is his allotted reward: When he says: "I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions," He does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others."
(Sirach 11:17-19)
Here we see Jesus' parable of the rich man and his barns. We can see a sharp comparison to the book of Sirach again here.
The apostles quote from this version as well. Here are just a few examples of these. If you really study the details of scripture in the writings of the apostles, you can find many many more than just the ones listed here.
"Yet the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment 8 upon him but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!" "
(Jude 1:9)
Here we see a reference to St. Michael the archangel and Satan having an argument as to what will happen to the body of Moses after he died before entering the land of Cannon. You can read the account of Moses' death a hundred times within the Old Testament, and you will never see a reference to this anywhere. Why is this? Because this story was taken from the apocryphal book of "The assumption of Moses".
"Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth--people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith. But they will not make further progress, for their foolishness will be plain to all, as it was with those two."
(2 Timothy 3:8-9)
Who are Jannes and Jambres? You never see either of these names anywhere in the Old Testament. You do however find a complete story about who they are and what they did in great detail in the book "Narrative of Aeneas" Chapter 5 Verse 4. You can also find a reference to this story in the book "The Gospel according to Nicodemus" Chapter 5 Verse 1. Both of these books are considered to be apocryphal.
"Know this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath, for the wrath of a man does not accomplish the righteousness of God."
(James 1:19-20)
"For suddenly his wrath flames forth; at the time of vengeance, you will be destroyed. Rely not upon deceitful wealth, for it will be no help on the day of wrath. Winnow not in every wind, and start not off in every direction. Be consistent in your thoughts; steadfast be your words. Be swift to hear, but slow to answer."
(Sirach 5:9-13)
Here is a very clear comparison with St. James and the book of Sirach.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you who by the power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final time. In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Although you have not seen him you love him; even though you do not see him now yet believe in him, you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls. "
(1 Peter 1:3-9)
"For if before men, indeed, they be punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever."
(Wisdom 3:4-8)
Here we see St. Peter speaking about the same teachings he already knew about. He parallels the book of Wisdom here in comparing the current troubles with salvation that the troubled people would see in the end.
Now that we have established that there are other books of the bible that are just as important as the others that are not in protestant versions of the bible, we need to continue through time along our story. After the crucifixion of Christ, the Christians started arriving on the scene preaching the good news of our Lord and savior Jesus the Christ. The Jewish leaders of that time noticed that Christians were using many scriptures within the Septuagint to justify their teachings to the people. In AD 90, a council was held by all the Jewish leaders of the time in Jamina. (This is why the council was called "The Council of Jamina") They decided that the Hebrew scriptures were the only valid form of scripture. So they all opted to remove the extra books that were not written in the original Hebrew language and developed a list of 4 criteria that every book of their cannon had to meet. Those criteria are:
1. The books MUST be written before 400 BC
2. The books MUST be written WITHIN Palestine
3. The books MUST be written in the Hebrew language
4. The books MUST conform to the Pentauch (first 5 books of the bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy)
The council also decided to make the official cannon of the Jewish people. This "Jewish bible" is mad up of a few different sections, and is depicted within a chart. (Click here for the complete chart)
Within the Talmud section of the "Jewish bible", we find such celebrations as the Hanukah story. This story is the story of Macabees which is depicted within the Duticannocal books of 2Macabees. . This story is not in any protestant version of the bible. Many of the books of scripture were thrown out of the official Jewish cannon or "Jewish Bible." This book of the bible is where the Catholic church gets it cannon of praying to the dead or souls that have gone up to heaven to be an intercessor with the departed soul's own prayers to God in heaven.
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Post by knuckle on Apr 18, 2008 6:06:16 GMT -5
It is in my 1611 KJV----that must be the catholic edition  |
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Post by knuckle on Apr 18, 2008 6:10:56 GMT -5
Jude quotes the book of Enoch
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 6:17:14 GMT -5
Jude quotes the book of Enoch LOL! Don't think I didn't see that one coming! (I've been doing this too long! ;D ). But! The Book of Enoch was "not" canonized in The Septugaint. The Septugaint was the Canon being used in Jewish training up until Jesus lifetime (60 years after, The Pharisees removed it because of it's blatant proof of Jesus' Messiahship). Pax Oh yeah, James also supposedly also quoted from The Book of Enoch too. Some have gone as far as to say that even Jesus quoted from The Book of Enoch too. www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message513486/pg1 |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 6:18:58 GMT -5
It is in my 1611 KJV----that must be the catholic edition Well, how many books were in the original KJV?  And what happened "after" that? |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 7:08:26 GMT -5
Christian use The early Christian Church continued to use the Greek texts since Greek was a lingua franca of the Roman Empire at the time, since Greek was the language of the Church, and since the Church Fathers tended to accept Philo's account of the LXX's miraculous and inspired origin. Furthermore, Christ and his Apostles in the New Testament quoted from the Old Greek.[19] When Jerome undertook the revision of the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint, he checked the Septuagint against the Hebrew that was then available. He came to believe that the Hebrew text better testified to Christ than the Septuagint[20]. He broke with church tradition and translated most of the Old Testament of his Vulgate from Hebrew rather than Greek. His choice was severely criticized by Augustine, his contemporary; a flood of still less moderate criticism came from those who regarded Jerome as a forger. But with the passage of time, acceptance of Jerome's version gradually increased until it displaced the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint.[5] The Hebrew text diverges in some passages that Christians hold to prophesy Christ, and the Eastern Orthodox Church still prefers to use the LXX as the basis for translating the Old Testament into other languages. The Orthodox Church of Constantinople, the Church of Greece and the Cypriot Orthodox Church continue to use it in their liturgy today, untranslated. Many modern critical translations of the Old Testament, while using the Masoretic text as their basis, consult the Septuagint as well as other versions in an attempt to reconstruct the meaning of the Hebrew text whenever the latter is unclear, undeniably corrupt, or ambiguous.[5] Many of the oldest Biblical verses among the Dead Sea Scrolls, particularly those in Aramaic, correspond more closely with the LXX than with the Masoretic text (although the majority of these variations are extremely minor, e.g. grammatical changes, spelling differences or missing words, and do not affect the meaning of sentences and paragraphs).[1][21][22] This confirms the scholarly consensus that the LXX represents a separate Hebrew-text tradition from that which was later standardized as the Masoretic text.[1] [23] Of the fuller quotations in the New Testament of the Old, nearly one hundred agree with the modern form of the Septuagint[24] and six agree with the Masoretic Text.[25] The principal differences concern presumed Biblical prophecies relative to Christ. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint |
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Post by alfie on Apr 18, 2008 16:24:11 GMT -5
Christian use The early Christian Church continued to use the Greek texts since Greek was a lingua franca of the Roman Empire at the time, since Greek was the language of the Church, and since the Church Fathers tended to accept Philo's account of the LXX's miraculous and inspired origin. Furthermore, Christ and his Apostles in the New Testament quoted from the Old Greek.[19] When Jerome undertook the revision of the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint, he checked the Septuagint against the Hebrew that was then available. He came to believe that the Hebrew text better testified to Christ than the Septuagint[20]. He broke with church tradition and translated most of the Old Testament of his Vulgate from Hebrew rather than Greek. His choice was severely criticized by Augustine, his contemporary; a flood of still less moderate criticism came from those who regarded Jerome as a forger. But with the passage of time, acceptance of Jerome's version gradually increased until it displaced the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint.[5] The Hebrew text diverges in some passages that Christians hold to prophesy Christ, and the Eastern Orthodox Church still prefers to use the LXX as the basis for translating the Old Testament into other languages. The Orthodox Church of Constantinople, the Church of Greece and the Cypriot Orthodox Church continue to use it in their liturgy today, untranslated. Many modern critical translations of the Old Testament, while using the Masoretic text as their basis, consult the Septuagint as well as other versions in an attempt to reconstruct the meaning of the Hebrew text whenever the latter is unclear, undeniably corrupt, or ambiguous.[5] Many of the oldest Biblical verses among the Dead Sea Scrolls, particularly those in Aramaic, correspond more closely with the LXX than with the Masoretic text (although the majority of these variations are extremely minor, e.g. grammatical changes, spelling differences or missing words, and do not affect the meaning of sentences and paragraphs).[1][21][22] This confirms the scholarly consensus that the LXX represents a separate Hebrew-text tradition from that which was later standardized as the Masoretic text.[1] [23] Of the fuller quotations in the New Testament of the Old, nearly one hundred agree with the modern form of the Septuagint[24] and six agree with the Masoretic Text.[25] The principal differences concern presumed Biblical prophecies relative to Christ. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeptuagintFirst of all this claim about the Septuagint is bogus. The Catholic church has never been able to prove that the Septuagint even existed. The Catholic Church simply used Origen's Hexapia... which included apocryphal writings in it. Jerome used the Hebrew Testament along with Origens apocryphal books to write the Vulgate. The Vulgate wasn't even the first Latin Bible it was the Vetus Itala which contained numerous errors in it. That is why the RCC wanted the Vulgate to try to correct the errors in the Vetus Itala. The Hebrew Testament (without the Apocrypha) is the "Real McCoy" not the phony Greek Septuagint. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 17:12:49 GMT -5
Actually, that was a secular site stating what I posted (Wikipedia). And scripture proves that Jesus used The Septuagint. Are you calling Jesus bogus? Jesus used it. (I posted the scriptures) The Apostles used it. (Duh? If Jesus used it, of course they used it) The Protestant Canon didn't exist until 90 AD. Prove to me that I'm wrong. It is a fact...only The Protestants (17% of Christianity) and The Pharisees use The Pharisees Old Testament Canon. Is that "not" true either? Forget Jerome (AKA Je-Rome! LOL!). What did Jesus use? Not The Protestant Canon. Not The Pharisees Canon (it didn't exist until 60 years "after" Jesus died). So, which Old Testament did Jesus use? Which one did He and The Aposltes quote from? (The Scriptures have been posted as proof already, so that cannot be denied) Ahhh, spoken like a true Pharisee! |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 17:14:08 GMT -5
PS Of course I expect you to cite your sources when you respond. 
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 17:25:00 GMT -5
Funny how you guys just swear by the "Greek" when it comes to defending The KJV, but whent it comes to what Bible Jesus used, then Greek is phony? Do you know why the Pharisees rejected The Septuagint? Precisely because it was in Greek (just like you just said). Oh and check this out. We all know that "7" is the number of God and that "3" represents The Holy Trinity.
We also know that "666" is the number of The Beast right?
Catholic Bible = "73" books
Protestant Bible = "66"(6) books
How did The Protestants get that "66"(6) books?
They removed "7" (God) books from the "73" (Godly Trinity) book Bible.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 17:26:19 GMT -5
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 18, 2008 18:32:44 GMT -5
ouch!
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 19:47:21 GMT -5
Did you ever notice that the same things that The Pharisees say about Jesus is the same things that anti-Catholics say about Catholics word for word pretty much? Coincidence?  |
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Post by alfie on Apr 18, 2008 19:54:40 GMT -5
Up until Trent the Catholic Bible contained Tobias, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, and Maccabees, First Esdras, Second Esdras, Epistle of Jeremiah, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Prayer of Azariah, and Laodiceans. Now only Tobit, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, and Maccabees remain so the Catholic Church took out some of their original books after it claimed those same books were valid for hundreds of years. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 20:13:20 GMT -5
Forget about the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 16th, 19th, 20th Century versions...
...list The Old Testament Canon when Jesus was quoting scripture.
;D
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Post by Cepha on Apr 18, 2008 20:33:33 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagintwww.septuagint.net/www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/These are non-Catholic and Protestant sites. Also, sections of The Septugaint were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (the oldest Biblical manuscripts ever found in human history). Most reasonable people believe that The Septugaint existed and that the books considered Canonical by universal Christianity (since the beginning of Chistianity) and by Jews from the 3rd Century B.C. are the same. Only The Pharisees (1st Century non-Christian Jews) and The Protestants (16th Century Christians) reject them. Just like I've been saying all along. ;D
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 19, 2008 1:19:45 GMT -5
Come on Alfie, i want to hear this one...
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2008 17:22:50 GMT -5
Hay CC, You know they'd NEVER allow questions like these on anti-Catholic sites. These are exactly the types of questions that got deleted and got me banned. Questions that expose The Truth. Not The Catholic Church's truth, not the anti-Catholic's truth, but just The Truth period. |
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