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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 19, 2008 19:44:05 GMT -5
yep, notice he has not responded!
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2008 20:02:46 GMT -5
yep, notice he has not responded! If you're referring to Alfie, I believe he is a she.  But the non-responsiveness is still the same. Let's see what happens, I get away from the PC for days myself. She may have an answer after all. She's been great at giving answers lately. Gotta respect that! ;D |
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Post by alfie on Apr 19, 2008 23:03:58 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagintwww.septuagint.net/www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/These are non-Catholic and Protestant sites. Also, sections of The Septugaint were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (the oldest Biblical manuscripts ever found in human history). Most reasonable people believe that The Septugaint existed and that the books considered Canonical by universal Christianity (since the beginning of Chistianity) and by Jews from the 3rd Century B.C. are the same. Only The Pharisees (1st Century non-Christian Jews) and The Protestants (16th Century Christians) reject them. Just like I've been saying all along. ;D Would you care to explain to me how Jesus could have quoted from the Septuagint? The Palestine Jews would have used the Hebrew Old Testament without the Apocrypha.... not the Alexandrian. "When Jesus was about to read the second lesson in the Nazareth synagogue did he not use a Hebrew scroll? It was only later, as the early church formed and the gospel was carried to the Greek-speaking world, that the Septuagint became the text often used by the growing church. Jesus and his disciples would have used the Hebrew text during His ministry. Besides, the earliest manuscripts we have of the entire Septuaginnt are from the 4th century? Although the 4th century copies do include the Apocryphal books, none include the same list of bookks |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2008 23:19:45 GMT -5
Didn't you see all the Septugaint quotes I posted that Jesus and The Apostles quoted? Well let me list them again and you can research them one by one and confirm them to be true for yourself:
Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament. Here are some examples:
Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 - behold, a "virgin" shall conceive. Hebrew - behold, a "young woman" shall conceive.
Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 - make "His paths straight." Hebrew - make "level in the desert a highway."
Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 - I desire "mercy" and not sacrifice. Hebrew - I desire "goodness" and not sacrifice.
Matt. 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 - in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust). Hebrew - the isles shall wait for his law.
Matt. 13:15 / Isaiah 6:10 - heart grown dull; eyes have closed; to heal. Hebrew - heart is fat; ears are heavy; eyes are shut; be healed.
Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 - teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew - a commandment of men (not doctrines).
Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 - out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has "perfect praise." Hebrew - thou has "established strength."
Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint – “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”
Luke 3:5-6 / Isaiah 40:4-5 - crooked be made straight, rough ways smooth, shall see salvation. Hebrew - omits these phrases.
Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 61:1 - and recovering of sight to the blind. Hebrew - the opening of prison to them that are bound.
Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 58:6 - to set at liberty those that are oppressed (or bruised). Hebrew - to let the oppressed go free.
John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24 - He gave them "bread" out of heaven to eat. Hebrew - gave them "food" or "grain" from heaven.
John 12:38 / Isaiah 53:1 - who has believed our "report?" Hebrew - who has believed our "message?"
John 12:40 / Isaiah 6:10 - lest they should see with eyes...turn for me to heal them. Hebrew - shut their eyes...and be healed.
Acts 2:19 / Joel 2:30 - blood and fire and "vapor" of smoke. Hebrew - blood and fire and "pillars" or "columns" of smoke.
Acts 2:25-26 / Psalm 16:8 - I saw...tongue rejoiced...dwell in hope.. Hebrew - I have set...glory rejoiced...dwell in safety.
Acts 4:26 / Psalm 2:1 - the rulers "were gathered together." Hebrew - rulers "take counsel together."
Acts 7:14 / Gen. 46:27; Deut. 10:22 - Stephen says "seventy-five" souls went down to Egypt. Hebrew - "seventy" people went.
Acts 7:27-28 / Exodus 2:14 - uses "ruler" and judge; killed the Egyptian "yesterday." Hebrew - uses "prince" and there is no reference to "yesterday."
Acts 7:43 / Amos 5:26-27 - the tent of "Moloch" and star of god of Rephan. Hebrew - "your king," shrine, and star of your god.
Acts 8:33 / Isaiah 53:7-8 - in his humiliation justice was denied him. Hebrew - by oppression...he was taken away.
Acts 13:41 / Habakkuk 1:5 - you "scoffers" and wonder and "perish." Hebrew - you "among the nations," and "be astounded."
Acts 15:17 / Amos 9:12 - the rest (or remnant) of "men." Hebrew - the remnant of "Edom."
Rom. 2:24 / Isaiah 52:5 - the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles. Hebrew - blasphemed (there is no mention of the Gentiles).
Rom. 3:4 / Psalm 51:4 - thou mayest "prevail" (or overcome) when thou art judged. Hebrew - thou might "be clear" when thou judges.
Rom. 3:12 / Psalm 14:1,3 - they "have gone wrong." Hebrew - they are "corrupt" or "filthy."
Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 5:9 - they use their tongues to deceive. Hebrew - they flatter with their tongues. There is no "deceit" language.
Rom. 3:13 / Psalm 140:3 - the venom of "asps" is under their lips. Hebrew - "Adder's" poison is under their lips.
Rom. 3:14 / Psalm 10:7 - whose mouth is full of curses and "bitterness." Hebrew - cursing and "deceit and oppression."
Rom. 9:17 / Exodus 9:16 - my power "in you"; my name may be "proclaimed." Hebrew - show "thee"; may name might be "declared."
Rom. 9:25 / Hosea 2:23 - I will call my people; I will call my beloved. Hebrew - I will have mercy (love versus mercy).
Rom. 9:27 / Isaiah 10:22 - only a remnant of them "will be saved." Hebrew - only a remnant of them "will return."
Rom. 9:29 / Isaiah 1:9 - had not left us "children." Hebrew - Jehova had left us a "very small remnant."
Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Peter 2:6 / Isaiah 28:16 - he who believes will not be "put to shame." Hebrew - shall not be "in haste."
Rom. 10:18 / Psalm 19:4 - their "voice" has gone out. Hebrew - their "line" is gone out.
Rom. 10:20 / Isaiah 65:1 - I have "shown myself" to those who did not ask for me. Hebrew - I am "inquired of" by them.
Rom. 10:21 / Isaiah 65:2 - a "disobedient and contrary" people. Hebrew - a "rebellious" people.
Rom. 11:9-10 / Psalm 69:22-23 - "pitfall" and "retribution" and "bend their backs." Hebrew - "trap" and "make their loins shake."
Rom. 11:26 / Isaiah 59:20 - will banish "ungodliness." Hebrew - turn from "transgression."
Rom. 11:27 / Isaiah 27:9 - when I take away their sins. Hebrew - this is all the fruit of taking away his sin.
Rom. 11:34; 1 Cor. 2:16 / Isaiah 40:13 -the "mind" of the Lord; His "counselor." Hebrew - "spirit" of the Lord; "taught" Him.
Rom. 12:20 / Prov. 25:21 - feed him and give him to drink. Hebrew - give him "bread" to eat and "water" to drink.
Rom. 15:12 / Isaiah 11:10 - the root of Jesse..."to rule the Gentiles." Hebrew - stands for an ensign. There is nothing about the Gentiles.
Rom. 15:21 / Isaiah 52:15 - been told "of him"; heard "of him." Hebrew - does not mention "him" (the object of the prophecy).
1 Cor. 1:19 / Isaiah 29:14 - "I will destroy" the wisdom of the wise. Hebrew - wisdom of their wise men "shall perish."
1 Cor. 5:13 / Deut. 17:7 - remove the "wicked person." Hebrew - purge the "evil." This is more generic evil in the MT.
1 Cor. 15:55 / Hosea 13:14 - O death, where is thy "sting?" Hebrew - O death, where are your "plagues?"
2 Cor. 4:13 / Psalm 116:10 - I believed and so I spoke (past tense). Hebrew - I believe, for I will speak (future tense).
2 Cor. 6:2 / Isaiah 49:8 - I have "listened" to you. Hebrew - I have "answered" you.
Gal. 3:10 / Deut. 27:26 - cursed be every one who does not "abide" by all things. Hebrew - does not "confirm" the words.
Gal. 3:13 / Deut. 21:23 - cursed is everyone who hangs on a "tree." Hebrew - a hanged man is accursed. The word "tree" does not follow.
Gal. 4:27 / Isaiah 54:1 - "rejoice" and "break forth and shout." Hebrew - "sing" and "break forth into singing."
2 Tim. 2:19 / Num. 16:5 - The Lord "knows" those who are His. Hebrew - God will "show" who are His.
Heb. 1:6 / Deut. 32:43 - let all the angels of God worship Him. Hebrew - the Masoretic text omits this phrase from Deut. 32:43.
Heb. 1:12 / Psalm 102:25 - like a "mantle" ... "roll them"... "will be changed." Hebrew - "raiment"... "change"..."pass away."
Heb. 2:7 / Psalm 8:5 - thou has made Him a little "lower than angels." Hebrew - made Him but a little "lower than God."
Heb. 2:12 / Psalm 22:22 - I will " sing" thy praise. Hebrew - I will praise thee. The LXX and most NTs (but not the RSV) have "sing."
Heb. 2:13 / Isaiah 8:17 - I will "put my trust in Him." Hebrew - I will "look for Him."
Heb. 3:15 / Psalm 95:8 - do not harden your hearts as "in the rebellion." Hebrew - harden not your hearts "as at Meribah."
Heb. 3:15; 4:7 / Psalm 95:7 - when you hear His voice do not harden not your hearts. Hebrew - oh that you would hear His voice!
Heb. 8:9-10 / Jer. 31:32-33 - (nothing about husband); laws into their mind. Hebrew - I was a husband; law in their inward parts.
Heb. 9:28 / Isaiah 10:22 - "to save those" who are eagerly awaiting for Him. Hebrew - a remnant of them "shall return."
Heb. 10:5 / Psalm 40:6 - "but a body hast thou prepared for me." Hebrew - "mine ears hast thou opened."
Heb. 10:38 / Hab. 2:3-4 - if he shrinks (or draws) back, my soul shall have no pleasure. Hebrew - his soul is puffed up, not upright.
Heb. 11:5 / Gen. 5:24 - Enoch was not "found." Hebrew - Enoch was "not."
Heb. 11:21 / Gen. 47:31 - Israel, bowing "over the head of his staff." Hebrew - there is nothing about bowing over the head of his staff.
Heb. 12:6 / Prov. 3:12 - He chastises every son whom He receives. Hebrew - even as a father the son in whom he delights.
Heb. 13:6 / Psalm 118:6 - the Lord "is my helper." Hebrew - Jehova "is on my side." The LXX and the NT are identical.
James 4:6 / Prov. 3:34 - God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Hebrew - He scoffs at scoffers and gives grace to the lowly.
1 Peter 1:24 / Isaiah 40:6 - all its "glory" like the flower. Hebrew - all the "goodliness" as the flower.
1 Pet. 2:9 / Exodus 19:6 - you are a "royal priesthood." Hebrew - you shall be to me a "kingdom of priests."
1 Pet. 2:9 / Isaiah 43:21 - God's own people...who called you out of darkness. Heb. - which I formed myself. These are different actions.
1 Pet. 2:22 / Isaiah 53:9 - he "committed no sin." Hebrew - he "had done no violence."
1 Pet. 4:18 / Prov. 11:31 - if a righteous man "is scarcely saved." Hebrew - if the righteous "is recompensed."
1 Pet. 5:5 / Prov. 3:34 - God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Hebrew - He scoffs at scoffers and gives grace to lowly.
Isaiah 11:2 - this verse describes the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the seventh gift, "piety," is only found in the Septuagint.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2008 23:29:21 GMT -5
Why? History teaches us that no other canon existed other than the one written in Koine Greek (The Septugaint). Besides, the rest of the word disagrees with your conjecture. Did you even look at the links that I posted by Protestants and non-Catholics? Remember? The ones that prove that The Septuagint existed even though you claimed that it didn't exist? Oh! I get it! When you want to use the Petros/Petras Greek word for Rock thing, then you deny the use of The Aramaic, but when it's inconvenient for you, then you insist that they "didn't" use Greek?  Jesus couldn't have used Hebrew text...The Old Testament Canon was written in Greek since 300 years "before" Jesus was even born. Of course, you don't have to believe me...you could just look at those Protestant & non-Catholic sites I listed. ;D (I suppose now you'll say that we brainwashed the world into believing history now?) Funny...4th century huh? List the books in The Canon of The Holy Bible in the 4th century: (Still waiting for you to answer that one! LOL!) This is it? This is what took you 2 days of research and Googling? You STILL haven't cited one source for where you get your information. So the rest of the non-Catholic world is in on deceiving the 17% of Christians who "don't" believe that Jesus used The Septuagint. Right? The Catholics are liers, secular history is lieing, Protestants are lieing, everybody is lieing.  |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 19, 2008 23:31:34 GMT -5
Oh yeah...The Septuagint was found with The Dead Sea Scrolls which have been dated back to "before" the 1st century!  When was The Protestant version of The Old Testament canonized and tell us by whom it was canonized? |
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Post by redsoxfan on Apr 20, 2008 17:01:24 GMT -5
I'm guessing you're probably not on her christmas card mailing this year Cephas...=P
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Post by Cepha on Apr 20, 2008 19:26:48 GMT -5
Hit list maybe, but not the Christmas list! ;D
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Post by alfie on Apr 21, 2008 23:16:26 GMT -5
Why? History teaches us that no other canon existed other than the one written in Koine Greek (The Septugaint). Besides, the rest of the word disagrees with your conjecture. Did you even look at the links that I posted by Protestants and non-Catholics? Remember? The ones that prove that The Septuagint existed even though you claimed that it didn't exist? Oh! I get it! When you want to use the Petros/Petras Greek word for Rock thing, then you deny the use of The Aramaic, but when it's inconvenient for you, then you insist that they "didn't" use Greek? Jesus couldn't have used Hebrew text...The Old Testament Canon was written in Greek since 300 years "before" Jesus was even born. Of course, you don't have to believe me...you could just look at those Protestant & non-Catholic sites I listed. ;D (I suppose now you'll say that we brainwashed the world into believing history now?) Funny...4th century huh? List the books in The Canon of The Holy Bible in the 4th century: (Still waiting for you to answer that one! LOL!) This is it? This is what took you 2 days of research and Googling? You STILL haven't cited one source for where you get your information. So the rest of the non-Catholic world is in on deceiving the 17% of Christians who "don't" believe that Jesus used The Septuagint. Right? The Catholics are liers, secular history is lieing, Protestants are lieing, everybody is lieing. Athanasius the fourth -century bishop of Alexandria. was the first Christian author to advocate a New Testament canon of twenty-seven books. This comes in a letter that Athanasius wrote in 367 CE— over three centuries after the writings of Paul, our earliest Christian author. As the Alexandrian bishop, Athanasius sent an annual letter to the churches in Egypt under his jurisdiction. The purpose of these letters was to set the date of Easter, which was not established well in advance, as in our modern calendars, but was announced each year by the church authorities. Athanasius used these annual “Festal” letters to provide pastoral advice and counsel to his churches. In his famous thirty-ninth Festal letter of 367 CE he indicates, as part of his advice, the books that his churches were to accept as canonical Scripture. He first lists the books of the “Old Testament, ” including the Old Testament Apocrypha (which were to be read only as devotional literature, not as canonical authorities). Then he names exactly the twenty-seven books that we now have as the New Testament, indicating that “in these alone the teaching of godliness is proclaimed. Let no one add to these; let nothing be taken away from them.” |
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Post by alfie on Apr 21, 2008 23:19:09 GMT -5
You do realize that there are other copies of the Greek Septuagint and that they differ in their selection of included apocryphal books. The three oldest complete copies we have of the Greek OT include different additional books. Codex Vaticanus (4th century) omits 1 and 2 Maccabees, which is canonical according to the Roman Catholic Church, and includes 1 Esdras, which they reject. Codex Sinaiticus (4th century) leaves out Baruch. which is supposed to be canonical, but includes 4 Maccabees, which they reject. Codex Alexandrinus (5th century) includes three non-canonical Apocryphal books, 1 Esdras and 3 and 4 Maccabees. I thought the Canon was already decided at Carthage prior to all of these copies. Please tell me which is the correct Bible version. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus |
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Post by righteousone on May 10, 2008 18:09:17 GMT -5
Alfie's signature is quite interesting. It even states how Luther disagreed on his OWN terms with the authority of the Roman Catholic church. Whatever was not to his liking, he went and did whatever he wanted. That statement even shows me the anger of this man, the arrogance of him, the stubborness of him.
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 19:16:21 GMT -5
Alfie's signature is quite interesting. It even states how Luther disagreed on his OWN terms with the authority of the Roman Catholic church. Whatever was not to his liking, he went and did whatever he wanted. That statement even shows me the anger of this man, the arrogance of him, the stubborness of him. Look at my signature...LOL! |
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Post by Cepha on May 10, 2008 19:17:46 GMT -5
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