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Post by Cepha on May 7, 2008 17:03:52 GMT -5
What are the limits on a supposed "man of God" proposing material wealth as evidance of God's approval?
With the current rash of selling of indulgences in American Christianity (where unsuspecting Christians are lured into believing that if they financially support a ministry, they will be contributing to God's work), what will it take for Christianity to see that this is wrong?
Jesus clearly preaches against the pursuit of material possesions, that it is best to live piously.
Some say "God want's me to be rich", but what is the definition of "rich"?
A Mansion? A Mercedes? Gold? Diamonds?
What are the "riches" in heaven that Jesus tells us we should focus on?
And why did He command us to "not" pursue wealth on earth?
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Post by alfie on May 12, 2008 22:22:58 GMT -5
Unsuspecting? I only know of greedy people who follow prosperity preachers and they aren't Christians. So why do the higher ups in the Catholic church live in splendor? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 12, 2008 22:32:20 GMT -5
I didnt know they did?
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Post by alfie on May 12, 2008 23:28:08 GMT -5
Are you saying the Pope lives in a dump? A couple of weeks ago Bill O' Reilly was talking about one of the Cardinals who lives in New York City and how lavish his lifestyle is. |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2008 3:56:55 GMT -5
Splendor? Define splendor.
And what's your understanding on how they live?
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2008 4:36:47 GMT -5
Are you saying the Pope lives in a dump? A couple of weeks ago Bill O' Reilly was talking about one of the Cardinals who lives in New York City and how lavish his lifestyle is. Ahh, Bill OReilly...the man caught in a sex scandal! What a person to watch! And...I ask you again, what do you know about how they live? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 13, 2008 10:00:21 GMT -5
The pope does live in a nice place, cant say about the cardinal(never saw his place). But look at the Priests, all of them, they do not live in huge brick homes and drive sweet cars. No, they live at the church. My priest drives a 90"s model Honda accord.
But there are MANY, protestant pastors that clear 100,000 dollars yr salary! Tell me that aint robbery!
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Post by knuckle on May 13, 2008 13:39:31 GMT -5
Hi guys---------------
our pastor makes $250 for a 60 hr week that comes to $4.16 an hr plus he is provided the parsonage rent free----he pays the electric and the church pays the water.He then tithes 10 % back to the church and probably gives another 10% to missions.I have seen this guy take the last dollar out of his pocket and give it to someone without blinking an eye yet the man never wants for anything----that is the prosperity gospel that God takes care of His own---is it about driving rollsroyces and living in mansions?absolutely not but if you take your last five dollars and feed a homeless person or help some old lady afford her prescription in love and in faith that God will provide for it you will never go hungry and your bills will get paid.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. What is the kingdom of God? love,charity,patience and peace,the works of the law of liberty as we treat our fellows is how we will be rewarded As James put it To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world is purity before our Father.
much love-------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2008 14:21:22 GMT -5
Hi guys--------------- our pastor makes $250 for a 60 hr week that comes to $4.16 an hr plus he is provided the parsonage rent free----he pays the electric and the church pays the water.He then tithes 10 % back to the church and probably gives another 10% to missions.I have seen this guy take the last dollar out of his pocket and give it to someone without blinking an eye yet the man never wants for anything----that is the prosperity gospel that God takes care of His own---is it about driving rollsroyces and living in mansions?absolutely not but if you take your last five dollars and feed a homeless person or help some old lady afford her prescription in love and in faith that God will provide for it you will never go hungry and your bills will get paid. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. What is the kingdom of God? love,charity,patience and peace,the works of the law of liberty as we treat our fellows is how we will be rewarded As James put it To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world is purity before our Father. much love-------------knuckle That is literally a Biblical definition of the worker earning his keep and in my opinion is exactly how a Pastor should be cared for. That's the kind of Christian church that I believe truly has Christ. Knuckle, if I am ever in your area, I'd love to worship with you and go to service with you at your church.  |
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Post by Cepha on May 13, 2008 15:09:42 GMT -5
The pope does live in a nice place, cant say about the cardinal(never saw his place). But look at the Priests, all of them, they do not live in huge brick homes and drive sweet cars. No, they live at the church. My priest drives a 90"s model Honda accord. But there are MANY, protestant pastors that clear 100,000 dollars yr salary! Tell me that aint robbery! First, where the Pope lives is not "his" residence...he lives on Church public property. It belongs to the Church. While clergy aren't forced to take a vow of poverty, most own nothing because they don't have jobs other than being clergymen and their pay for that work is similar to Knuckle's pastor's pay. Some Priests come from wealthy families. Most Priests receive gifts from parishoners who love them and take care of them. Most Church possessions are donated or "willed" to Church by congregation. As for Vatican City, when you have a Church that's close to 2,000 years old with trillions of adherants throughout history, that Church is bound to collect objects "willed" and donated to said Church. Of course, the best artists and musicians and craftsmen of history have been Catholics so they've worked for The Church giving their talents to The Church. In other words, sculptures and paintings and symphonies done by Leonardo DaVinci or Bach or Mozart, etc...for the Church were not works that the Church purchased. These world's great artists were commissioned by The Church and were payed a reasonable fee for their time (which is only fair) and the artists themselves considered it an honor to create art for the glorification of God. It's like this...which church is most likely to have possesions? A mega-church started in the 80's? Or a flock started last week? In time, even that small flock can grow into a mega-church and too come to hold wealth, but that in no way is a sign of their adherence to or not to scripture. In short, what a church owns is not a sign of whether or not it teaches the truth. Two churches can teach the exact same thing and one can be extremely wealthy while the other can be dirt poor. The message of the dirt poor church however is no less than the wealthy church's and vice/versa. And, in case anyone is wondering why I started this thread, it was at the request of a non-Catholic Christian. |
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Post by alfie on May 17, 2008 19:37:57 GMT -5
The pope does live in a nice place, cant say about the cardinal(never saw his place). But look at the Priests, all of them, they do not live in huge brick homes and drive sweet cars. No, they live at the church. My priest drives a 90"s model Honda accord. But there are MANY, protestant pastors that clear 100,000 dollars yr salary! Tell me that aint robbery! First, where the Pope lives is not "his" residence...he lives on Church public property. It belongs to the Church. While clergy aren't forced to take a vow of poverty, most own nothing because they don't have jobs other than being clergymen and their pay for that work is similar to Knuckle's pastor's pay. Some Priests come from wealthy families. Most Priests receive gifts from parishoners who love them and take care of them. Most Church possessions are donated or "willed" to Church by congregation. As for Vatican City, when you have a Church that's close to 2,000 years old with trillions of adherants throughout history, that Church is bound to collect objects "willed" and donated to said Church. Of course, the best artists and musicians and craftsmen of history have been Catholics so they've worked for The Church giving their talents to The Church. In other words, sculptures and paintings and symphonies done by Leonardo DaVinci or Bach or Mozart, etc...for the Church were not works that the Church purchased. These world's great artists were commissioned by The Church and were payed a reasonable fee for their time (which is only fair) and the artists themselves considered it an honor to create art for the glorification of God. It's like this...which church is most likely to have possesions? A mega-church started in the 80's? Or a flock started last week? In time, even that small flock can grow into a mega-church and too come to hold wealth, but that in no way is a sign of their adherence to or not to scripture. In short, what a church owns is not a sign of whether or not it teaches the truth. Two churches can teach the exact same thing and one can be extremely wealthy while the other can be dirt poor. The message of the dirt poor church however is no less than the wealthy church's and vice/versa. And, in case anyone is wondering why I started this thread, it was at the request of a non-Catholic Christian. I am looking for some writings written by Jerome in which he condemns the Catholic church for all of its excesses and corruption. When I find it I will get back to you. |
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2008 20:27:59 GMT -5
Here...let me assist you with that: ;D Jerome on the intercession of The Saints in Heaven:"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]). Jerome on Mary's perpetual virginity:"We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (ibid., 21). "I must call upon the Holy Spirit to express His meaning by my mouth and defend the virginity of the Blessed Mary. I must call upon the Lord Jesus to guard the sacred lodging of the womb in which He abode for ten months from all suspicion of sexual intercourse. And I must also entreat God the Father to show that the mother of His Son, who was a mother before she was a bride, continued a Virgin after her son was born. We have no desire to career over the fields of eloquence, we do not resort to the snares of the logicians or the thickets of Aristotle. We shall adduce the actual words of Scripture. Let him be refuted by the same proofs which he employed against us, so that he may see that it was possible for him to read what is written, and yet to be unable to discern the established conclusion of a sound faith." (383 a.d.) Jerome on confession & penance:"If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him" (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]). Jerome on Apostolic Succession:"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]). Jerome on the authority of The Pope:"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]). Jerome on Peter being the leader of The Apostles:"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]). Jerome on Peter being in Rome:"Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus, and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord" (Lives of Illustrious Men 1 [A.D. 396]). Jerome on The Deuterocanonical Books (Apochrypha in the KJV):"What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating [in my preface to the book of Daniel] the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susannah [Dan. 13], the Song of the Three Children [Dan. 3:29–68, RSV-CE], and the story of Bel and the Dragon [Dan. 14], which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant." (Against Rufinius 11:33 [A.D. 401]). Jerome on The Papacy and Successon:"[Pope] Stephen . . . was the blessed Peter’s twenty-second successor in the See of Rome" (Against the Luciferians 23 [A.D. 383]). "Clement, of whom the apostle Paul writing to the Philippians says ‘With Clement and others of my fellow-workers whose names are written in the book of life,’ the fourth bishop of Rome after Peter, if indeed the second was Linus and the third Anacletus, although most of the Latins think that Clement was second after the apostle" (Lives of Illustrious Men 15 [A.D. 396]). "Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord . . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church [Rome] whose faith has been praised by Paul [Rom. 1:8]. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. . . . Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact" (Letters 15:1 [A.D. 396]). Jerome on The Catholic Church and her beliefs:In Rome (ca. 383) he wrote a passionate counterblast against the teaching of Helvidius, in defense of the doctrine of The perpetual virginity of Mary, the Mary, and of the superiority of the single over the married state. Once more he defended the ordinary Catholic practices of piety and his own ascetic ethics in 406 against the Spanish presbyter Vigilantius, who opposed the cultus of martyrs and relics, the vow of poverty, and clerical celibacy. Unlike his contemporaries, he emphasizes the difference between the Hebrew Bible "apocrypha" (most of which are now in the deuterocanon) and the Hebraica veritas of the canonical books. Evidence of this can be found in his introductions to the Solomonic writings, to the Book of Tobit, and to the Book of Judith. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JeromeJerome maintains against Helvidius three propositions:— 1st. That Joseph was only putatively, not really, the husband of Mary. 2d. That the brethren of the Lord were his cousins, not his own brethren. 3d. That virginity is better than the married state. (a.d. 383) |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 10, 2008 23:06:21 GMT -5
I love watching bill oreilly! He tells it like it is!
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 11, 2008 10:07:50 GMT -5
Prosperity Preaching,
ARHRHAHAHDJSDJASHASHAHAHHA!!@!K@#J! That's what I say about it.
Really, it makes me sick. I keep getting this catologue for "Chrisitan" books and among some of the titles are "Think like a Billionaire, become a billionaire" and "Millionaire habits"
a while ago, I saw one called "Vow of Prosperity" .
The first two should change the title to " "Think greedy, become an idolator--and justify it with the Bible!" and the last one should be "I vow to take anything Catholic (ie vow of poverty) and completely trash it and twist it and then sell it for a profit, all in the name of protestantism!" Ok, I hope I don't sound too harsh, but really, what were they thinking? How is that Christian? I'm not saying it's a sin to have money, but those books were not talking about how someone who is already a billionaire should live, but just how to become a billionaire , plain and simple. How is that not about the love of money? How was that in a "Christian" book catalog?
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 10:40:06 GMT -5
Prosperity Preaching, ARHRHAHAHDJSDJASHASHAHAHHA!!@!K@#J! That's what I say about it. Really, it makes me sick. I keep getting this catologue for "Chrisitan" books and among some of the titles are "Think like a Billionaire, become a billionaire" and "Millionaire habits" a while ago, I saw one called "Vow of Prosperity" . The first two should change the title to " "Think greedy, become an idolator--and justify it with the Bible!" and the last one should be "I vow to take anything Catholic (ie vow of poverty) and completely trash it and twist it and then sell it for a profit, all in the name of protestantism!" Ok, I hope I don't sound too harsh, but really, what were they thinking? How is that Christian? I'm not saying it's a sin to have money, but those books were not talking about how someone who is already a billionaire should live, but just how to become a billionaire , plain and simple. How is that not about the love of money? How was that in a "Christian" book catalog? teresa Don't forget the the "seed" scams. Pure indulgences. "Send me money and I'll send you this magic cloth and blessings!" |
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Post by alfie on Sept 6, 2008 15:17:08 GMT -5
Most of the Old testament dudes chosen by God were rich.
I guess now that we are under a new covenant we are all supposed to be poor.
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Post by Cepha on Sept 8, 2008 10:13:17 GMT -5
Most of the Old testament dudes chosen by God were rich. I guess now that we are under a new covenant we are all supposed to be poor. Poor is a relative term Alfie. I think Jesus wanted us to be "spiritually" poor. Wealth is never frowned upon. A wealthy person can do much to help the poor. But the pursuit of wealth is what I think is frowned upon. Expecially when one tries to tie in material success to God's blessings. Sure, God will bless one with prosperity, but then we must define what is considered "prosperity" too. For example, there are "excesses" after all and lusting after material things is just as much idolatry as praying to a statue. I think it's a sin for one to deprive themselves on purpose, but not out of humility. |
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 8, 2008 12:10:45 GMT -5
Knuckle, your pastor is not the kind of person we are talking about. Clearly, he is not preaching "prosperity gospel" as we are talking about it.
But the notion that if we just have enough faith, we will be healthy, wealthy and wise, is very prevalent in USA.
There are very, very few people in USA that could be considered "poor" if we look at the entire world (not just us)
I'm considered "poor" in America because we have 3 kids, my husband makes minimum wage (I don't work). We have NO car and we sometimes run out of toilet paper! But SO WHAT?
Aren't we supposed to be content in ALL situations whether living in PLENTY or in WANT?
Whatever happened to "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"?
But I think it would be ridiculous to say we are "poor" esp. compared with the rest of the world and "3rd world" countries.
What ever happened to "If we have food and clothing, we will be content with that"?
As it now stands, I believe the statistic is that American Christians spend more money on DOG FOOD than on missions to the poor (overseas where they need it more)!
YIKES! God help us all.
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