The Whore of Babylon...

[knuckle]

Hi Cepha------------

Mystery Babylon is the religion of self.The number 666 is not the number of A man(singular) but the number of all men(mankind) we,everyone of us are the Man of sin and it must be revealed.

Peter saw it revealed in the court yard when he denied Christ after proclaiming that he would follow Jesus even into death

Joh 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

and how did Christ answer him?Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

You see Peter hadn't been converted yet---his belief on what he would do was based on self .The young maiden who accused Peter was satan---there is a reason the enemy came in this guise which we can discuss if you like.The gist of it though is this Peter was the man of sin and the whore of babylon as we all are until the Petra of his faith made him head of the church,but his house had to fall first.

I love the scene on the shore where Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him. The word Agapao as apposed to Phileo shows how much Peter had grown spiritually that the one who would have prevented the crucifiction admits that he can't comprehend the love behind it.

At Pentecost satan showed up again to accuse Peter this time in the guise of men,calling him a drunkard---and this same Peter stood up boldly to proclaim the One he had denied---that is the Rock on which the church was built


much love to you Sir-----------------knuckle

[cradlecathlic27]

good stuff guys, keep it up! Im learning!

[Cepha]

emily445455 said:

My church did a study...and we studied that it was the RCC. I can't seem to find my notes, but if you'd like to listen to the sermons on it, let me know.

There's sermons on that topic and the topic of Israel being the woman in Rev 12.

Emily,

I've been hearing this a lot lately from non-Catholic Christians, the "I know it's here somewhere, I just can't find it right now" defense.

No offense, but that's not a very good answer. As for the sermon, I had trouble accessing it.

If you believe that, why can't you just prove it? It doesn't talk that much. All you have to do is talk about it.

If you can't defend a belief yourself, how can you believe it?

At least, you should give it a try.

If you can't explain it, you shouldn't profess it.

Yes, I am challenging you...not in a negative way, but in a strengthening way to help you come to a position where you can defend your beleifs better.

[Cepha]

knuckle
Mystery Babylon is the religion of self.The number 666 is not the number of A man(singular) but the number of all men(mankind) we,everyone of us are the Man of sin and it must be revealed.

So the fact that 666 literally means "Nero" in Jewish writing is not to be taken as what John (a Jew writing in code so that the Romans couldn't decipher his letters) was talking about when Nero was actually doing what John wrote the Beast was doing?

[Cepha]

DISCLAIMER by John Hellmann

The words that Jesus used to condemn the Jewish leaders of his day apply to those specific individuals. Jesus did not reject the Jewish people as a whole, and this can in no way justify anti-Semitism. Jesus was Jewish, His Mother was Jewish, as were all his disciples. The Jews, as the God’s first born son, represent to all of us how God will deal with us individually.

The Israelites, and especially city of Jerusalem, represents all mankind. This is because they are God’s firstborn. They were called by God to be the light to the nations to reveal God’s plan of salvation. Their history represents the two paths, both the good and the bad. So, in Revelation you find the Heavenly Jerusalem, and Babylon Jerusalem, the two paths for mankind. It the Jewish Scriptures [the First, or Old Testament in the Christian Bible] we find the theme of two sons, one good and one bad, e.g. Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, etc. It is the job of the good son, the one that is blessed by God, to go help the other one be reconciled back to the family. Cf. Luke 15: 11-31.

If we look at a crucifix and say, "If I was alive at the time of Christ, I would never have cooperated with his Crucifixion, we then are guilty of the very sin that Christ condemned in
Matthew 23:29-31 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets." RSV Mark 2:17 "Jesus heard this and said to them (that), ‘Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.’ " NAB

The proper Catholic response is one of humility. One that responds, "If I had been there, and unless God aided me to do better with His grace, then I would have done just as bad if not worse than those who killed Christ." Christ died because of our sins and the Crucifix is to remind ourselves of the price of our sin and how very deeply God loves us even though we are sinners. By acknowledging our sinfulness and our dependence on God we can humbly open ourselves up to His Grace, the gift of Himself. If we are proud like the Devil then we close off the channel of grace.

The Temple represented the whole world. Its destruction in 70 AD represented the destruction of the world at the end of time. What happened to the Jews will happen to us. Those who are open to and receive the grace of God will be saved and those who reject it will be punished. Catholicism teaches that anti-Semitism is a sin. If a Jew accepts Christianity he does not stop being a Jew, rather he becomes a completed Jew, one who has found his Jewish Messiah.



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Most of the Scripture verses below were taken from Dr. Scott Hahn's tapes. Listening to Dr. Hahn's tapes, and trying to catch all the deep truths that he brings out of Sacred Scripture, can be like standing under a waterfall on a hot summer day - a lot of it will pass a person by, but he still gets very wet and refreshed. If you want to hear all the beautiful insights you will have to buy the tapes. They can be ordered from Saint Joseph Communications Phone : [phone].
(Oh, how the virtue of humility and a love for the Truth have moved me to love playing his tapes over and over. The joy of Christ is certainly communicated to those who have faith by means of these tapes.)



Babylon - Jerusalem



In Revelation we find references to both Heavenly Jerusalem, and Babylon Jerusalem, which represent the two paths for mankind.

The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic. So, it is best for a person to familiarize oneself with the rest of Sacred Scriptures, the Bible, because it is there that Saint John would be able to draw upon meanings that he knew his readers would be able to pick up on. These clues clearly point to Babylon as being a code name for the corrupt city of Jerusalem, possibly just before 70 AD. Those who contend that Babylon is Rome must ignore all the Biblical evidence to the contrary and interject non-biblical suppositions which are usually based on preconceived notions.


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SEVEN HILLS



Revelation 17:9-10 “Here is a clue for one who has wisdom. The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings: five have already fallen, one still lives, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a short while.”

Some have tried to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon by pointing out that Rome has been referred to as a city on seven hills. The Seven Hills of Rome are; the Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, and the Caelian Hill. However, Saint Peter’s Basilica was built on Vatican Hill, Collis Vaticanus, which is on the other side of the Tiber River and is not one of these Seven Hills. St. Peter Basilica’s high altar was built directly on top of Saint Peter’s grave which was outside of the city and across the river. [See the book The Bones of St. Peter by John Evangelist Walsh]

The reference to the seven hills does fit in regards to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem was a large city spreading beyond the walls of the fort and onto the seven hills there during the time of Jesus and the Apostles. It’s seven hills are; 1.) Mount Gared; 2.) Mount Goath; 3.) Mount Acra; 4.) Mount Bezetha; 5.) Mount Moriah; 6.) Mount Ophel; 7.) Mount Zion. Sometimes, some will substitute the first four with the Mount of Olives, Mount of Offence, Mount of Evil Counsel, and Mount Calvary.

Mount Calvary is presently leveled for the most part. It was a major quarry that was used for the building of the city. As the quarrymen cut into the stone layer by layer they discovered a section that was flawed. A crack in that section made it unusable so they cut around it. As they cut and cleared away the stone slabs from around the flawed section it left an outcropping rising thirty feet from the floor of the quarry to where the top of the hill had once been. It was into this flawed crack that the Roman’s placed the upright beam of the cross of the criminals that they crucified to place fear into their subjects. And it was here that our Savior gave his life for our salvation.






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CODE NAME



Revelation 17:5-6
"On her forehead was written a name, which is a mystery, ‘Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.’ I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the holy ones and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her I was greatly amazed."

Babylon was a code name, a "mystery." Compare how Jerusalem is referred to similar code names such as Sodom, Gomorrah, and Egypt. All of these, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, and Babylon are all notorious enemies of God’s people.

Isaiah 1: 1, 9-10
"The vision which Isaiah, son of Amoz, had concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
…9 Unless the LORD of hosts had left us a scanty remnant, We had become as Sodom, we should be like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, princes of Sodom! Listen to the instruction of our God, people of Gomorrah !"

Moses warns the Jews how God will punish them and destroy their land if they forsake the covenant.

Deuteronomy 29: 22-24
"…all its soil being nothing but sulphur and salt, a burnt-out waste, unsown and unfruitful, without a blade of grass, destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in his furious wrath— they and all the nations will ask, ‘Why has the LORD dealt thus with this land? Why this fierce outburst of wrath?’ And the answer will be, ‘Because they forsook the covenant which the LORD, the God of their fathers, had made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt…"

Jeremiah 23:14
"But among Jerusalem’s prophets I saw deeds still more shocking: Adultery, living in lies, siding with the wicked, so that no one turns from evil; To me they are all like Sodom, its citizens like Gomorrah."

Romans 9:27-29
"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, ‘Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved; for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.’ And as Isaiah predicted: ‘Unless the Lord of hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom
and have been made like Gomorrah.’ " NAB

John in his Book of Revelation continues this use of code names for the "great city." He is using symbolism to refer to people who had betrayed God’s people.

Revelation 11:8
"Their corpses will lie in the main street of the great city, which has the symbolic names ‘Sodom’ and ‘Egypt,’ where indeed their Lord was crucified."

This passage in Revelation 11: 8 is most important because it clues us in as to where this "great city" is. It is "where indeed their Lord was crucified." It is Jerusalem.






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"BABYLON" IS CALLED THE GREAT CITY



Revelation 18:10
"They will keep their distance for fear of the torment inflicted on her, and they will say: ‘Alas, alas, great city, Babylon, mighty city. In one hour your judgment has come.’ "
NAB

Jerusalem is also called the great city.

Jeremiah 22:4-8
"If you carry out these commands, kings who succeed to the throne of David will continue to enter the gates of this palace, riding in chariots or mounted on horses, with their ministers, and their people. But if you do not obey these commands, I swear by myself, says the LORD: this palace shall become rubble. For thus says the LORD concerning the palace of the king of Judah: Though you be to me like Gilead,
like the peak of Lebanon, I will turn you into a waste, a city uninhabited. Against you I will send destroyers, each with his axe: They shall cut down your choice cedars,
and cast them into the fire. Many people will pass by this city and ask one another: ‘Why has the LORD done this to so great a city ?’ "





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"BABYLON" AND THE DEATHS OF THE PROPHETS



Revelation 17:5-6
"On her forehead was written a name, which is a mystery, ‘Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.’ I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the holy ones and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her I was greatly amazed."

Revelation 18:24
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and holy ones and all who have been slain on the earth." NAB

Compare them with these statements about Jerusalem

Luke 11:47-51
"Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed.
Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building. Therefore, the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and persecute’ in order that this generation might be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who died between the altar and the temple building. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be charged with their blood !"

Luke 13:31-34
"At that time some Pharisees came to him and said, ‘Go away, leave this area because Herod wants to kill you.’ … Yet I must continue on my way today, tomorrow, and the following day, for it is impossible that a prophet should die outside of Jerusalem.’ ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were unwilling !’ "

Matthew 23:29-36;
" ‘Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, "If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood." Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out ! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna ? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.’ "

24:34
"Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place."





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A CITY WITH FINE CLOTHING AND PRECIOUS STONES



Revelation 18:16-17
"…Alas, alas, great city, wearing fine linen, purple and scarlet, adorned (in) gold, precious stones, and pearls. In one hour this great wealth has been ruined."

Exodus 35: 30 - 36: 1

"Moses said to the Israelites, ‘See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel… of the tribe of Judah, and has filled him with a divine spirit of skill and understanding and knowledge in every craft: in the production of embroidery, in making things of gold, silver or bronze, in cutting and mounting precious stones, in carving wood, and in every other craft. …He has endowed them with skill to execute all types of work: engraving, embroidering, the making of variegated cloth of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen thread, weaving, and all other arts and crafts. ‘Bezalel, therefore, will set to work with Oholiab and with all the experts whom the LORD has endowed with skill and understanding in knowing how to execute all the work for the service of the sanctuary, just as the LORD has commanded.’ "

Exodus 39: 1-2, 8-14
"With violet, purple and scarlet yarn were woven the service cloths for use in the sanctuary, as well as the sacred vestments for Aaron, as the LORD had commanded Moses. The ephod was woven of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and of fine linen twined…
(8) The breastpiece was embroidered like the ephod, with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined. … Four rows of precious stones were mounted on it: in the first row a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald; in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl; in the third row a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; in the fourth row a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. They were mounted in gold filigree work. These stones were twelve, to match the names of the sons of Israel, and each stone was engraved like a seal with the name of one of the twelve tribes."





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DESTROYED WITH FIRE



God had promised blessings to the Jews if they obeyed, Deut 28: 8 and seven curses if they disobeyed, verses 15 -20. God’s Covenant is effected by His Oath. The word "oath" is based on the word "seven." And so the number "seven" represents the Covenant. In Leviticus he threatens to punish the Jews with fire if they break the Covenant.

Leviticus 26: 15-16, 27- 28
"…if you reject my precepts and spurn my decrees, refusing to obey all my commandments and breaking my covenant, then I…
(27) If, despite all this, you still persist in disobeying and defying me, I, also, will meet you with fiery defiance and will chastise you with sevenfold fiercer punishment for your sins…" (emphasis added)

It also had been prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed by fire in the following passages.

Ezekiel 16: 2-3, 35, 38, 41
" Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations. Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem … 35 Therefore, harlot, hear the word of the LORD! …
38 I will inflict on you the sentence of adulteresses and murderesses; I will wreak fury and jealousy upon you. … 41 They shall burn your apartments with fire and inflict punishments on you while many women look on. Thus I will put an end to your harlotry, and you shall never again give payment." NAB (emphasis added)

Ezekiel 23: 2-4, 17-19, 22-25, 44-47
" Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother, who even as young girls played the harlot in Egypt. … (As for their names: Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem is Oholibah.) …
22 Therefore, Oholibah, thus says the Lord GOD: … 25 … They shall take away your sons and daughters, and what is left of you shall be devoured by fire. …
44 And indeed they did come to her as men come to a harlot. Thus they came to Oholah and Oholibah, the lewd women.
45 But just men shall punish them with the sentence meted out to adulteresses and murderesses, for they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands.
… 47 The assembly shall stone them and hack them to pieces with their swords. They shall slay their sons and daughters, and burn their houses with fire." NAB (emphasis added)

Also see Lamentations 2:4, and 4:11. Ezekiel 19:12, 21:2-3, 22:19-21,

[Cepha]

In John's prophetic vision "Babylon" is also to be destroyed by fire.

Revelation 18: 8, 17
"Therefore, her plagues will come in one day, pestilence, grief, and famine;…
she will be consumed by fire. For mighty is the Lord God who judges her…
(17) In one hour this great wealth has been ruined." Every captain of a ship, every traveler at sea, sailors, and seafaring merchants stood at a distance…"

Jerusalem had been a center for commercial trade. Jewish maps even depict it as the center of the world, but true to prophecy it had been completely destroyed by fire in 70 AD, whereas, Rome was only partially burned by Nero.

The burning of Jerusalem by fire also had theological significance. The City of Jerusalem is often referred to as a daughter.

Lamentations 2:15-18
" … They hiss and wag their heads over daughter Jerusalem:
‘Is this the all-beautiful city, the joy of the whole earth?’
…The LORD has done as he decreed: he has fulfilled the threat
He set forth from days of old; he has destroyed and had no pity,
…Cry out to the Lord; moan, O daughter Zion!" NAB

Unfaithfulness to God is frequently compared to sexual immorality.
The penalty for fornication by the daughter of the priest called for a special punishment. It was to be burned to death.

Leviticus 21:9 "A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death." NAB

So, when Jerusalem was offered the grace to accept Christ, but instead rejected Him, she is referred to as the "Whore of Babylon" who is subsequently burnt to death.






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HARLOT



Just as "Babylon" is referred to as a whore, a harlot. Jerusalem is also called a harlot.

Revelation 17:1
"Then one of the seven angels who were holding the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come here. I will show you the judgment on the great harlot…"

Ezekiel 16: 1-3, 26
"Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations. Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem: By origin and birth you are of the land of Canaan; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite…
(26) You played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, so many times that I was provoked to anger."

Jeremiah 2:1-2, 17-20
"This word of the LORD came to me: Go, cry out this message for Jerusalem to hear! …
(17) Has not the forsaking of the LORD, your God, done this to you ? And now, why go to Egypt, to drink the waters of the Nile? Why go to Assyria, to drink the waters of the Euphrates ? Your own wickedness chastises you, your own infidelities punish you. Know then, and see, how evil and bitter is your forsaking the LORD, your God,
And showing no fear of me, says the Lord, the GOD of hosts. Long ago you broke your yoke, you tore off your bonds. ‘I will not serve,’ you said. On every high hill, under every green tree, you gave yourself to harlotry."

Isaiah 1:1, 21
"The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah… (21) How the faithful city has become a harlot, she that was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers." RSV

Jeremiah 3:1-2,6-8
" ‘If a man divorces his wife and she goes from him and becomes another man’s wife,
will he return to her ? Would not that land be greatly polluted ? You have played the harlot with many lovers; and would you return to me ? says the Lord. Lift up your eyes to the bare heights, and see ! Where have you not been lain with ? By the waysides you have sat awaiting lovers like an Arab in the wilderness. You have polluted the land with your vile harlotry…’
(6) The Lord said to me in the days of King Josiah: ‘Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the harlot ? And I thought, "After she has done all this she will return to me;" but she did not return, and her false sister Judah saw it. She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce; yet her false sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot.’ " RSV

Jeremiah 5:1, 5-7
"Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, look and take note ! Search her squares to see if you can find a man, one who does justice and seeks truth; that I may pardon her…
(5) I will go to the great, and will speak to them; for they know the way of the Lord,
the law of their God." But they all alike had broken the yoke, they had burst the bonds. Therefore a lion from the forest shall slay them, a wolf from the desert shall destroy them. A leopard is watching against their cities, every one who goes out of them shall be torn in pieces; because their transgressions are many, their apostasies are great. ‘How can I pardon you ? Your children have forsaken me, and have sworn by those who are no gods. When I fed them to the full, they committed adultery and trooped to the houses of harlots.’ "
RSV

Ezekiel 23:1-5, 11, 17-19
"The word of the Lord came to me: ‘Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother… Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem. Oholah played the harlot while she was mine; and she doted on her lovers the Assyrians…
(11) Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet she was more corrupt than she in her doting and in her harlotry, which was worse than that of her sister…
(17) And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their lust; and after she was polluted by them, she turned from them in disgust. When she carried on her harlotry so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned from her sister. Yet she increased her harlotry, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the harlot in the land of Egypt.’ " RSV





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ASSOCIATED WITH THE SCARLET BEAST



Compare the following verses. King Herod the Edomite, had falsely claimed to be King David’s successor. "Edom" means red, [ it referred to Esau’s successors. ] And not so coincidentally the beast in Revelation 17 is scarlet.

Revelation 17:1-3
"Then one of the seven angels who were holding the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come here. I will show you the judgment on the great harlot … Then he carried me away in spirit to a deserted place where I saw a woman seated on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names, with seven heads and ten horns."

We see an evil relationship between the harlot, apostate Jerusalem, and the scarlet beast, King Herod, on whom she is seated. This evil alliance is confirmed in the Book of Acts.

Acts 4:26-28
" ‘The kings of the earth took their stand and the princes gathered together against the Lord and against his anointed.’ Indeed they gathered in this city against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, Herod and Pontius Pilate, together with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do what your hand and (your) will had long ago planned to take place."

Acts 12:1-3, 19, 21-23
"About that time King Herod laid hands upon some members of the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John, killed by the sword, and when he saw that this was pleasing to the Jews he proceeded to arrest Peter also. (It was (the) feast of Unleavened Bread.) …
(19) Herod, after instituting a search but not finding him, ordered the guards tried and executed. Then he left Judea to spend some time in Caesarea…
(21) On an appointed day, Herod, attired in royal robes, (and) seated on the rostrum, addressed them publicly. The assembled crowd cried out, ‘This is the voice of a god, not of a man.’ At once the angel of the Lord struck him down because he did not ascribe the honor to God, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last."

A reading of the Book of Acts will show many examples of the particular Jewish leaders of that time attacking the Christians. For example, Acts 7: 54 -60, 14: 4-6, 19 and 17: 5 -7. Jesus had prophesied in John 16:2 that His followers would be kicked out of the synagogue.





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LIVED NEAR THE MANY WATERS



The harlot is said to live near the many waters.

Revelation 17:1-3
"Then one of the seven angels who were holding the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come here. I will show you the judgment on the great harlot who lives near the many waters. The kings of the earth have had intercourse with her, and the inhabitants of the earth became drunk on the wine of her harlotry.’ Then he carried me away in spirit to a deserted place where I saw a woman seated on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names, with seven heads and ten horns."

First Figurative Meaning:

Revelation 17:15 “And he said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.”



Second Figurative Meaning:

Jesus had been crucified just outside the city of Jerusalem. When His side was pierced with the sword out flowed water and blood. The water represents the waters of Baptism, through which God gives us saving grace and eternal life. The blood which flowed from His side is a reference to the Blood that He offered at the Last Supper, the Eucharist. Cf. John 6: 54

John 7:37-38 "… Jesus stood up and exclaimed, ‘Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: "Rivers of living water will flow from within him." ’ "



Literal meaning:

Some individuals try to associate the phrase, "lives near the many waters" in Revelation 17 with the city of Rome by pointing out that Jerusalem was not on the coast. However, neither is the city of Rome on the coast. The "lives near the many waters" could also have a literal reference to the fact that within Palestine, and not to far from Jerusalem, Herod had built the man made port of Caesarea and dedicated it to the Caesar.





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"BABYLON" HAS SOVEREIGNTY OVER THE NATIONS



Revelation 17:18
"The woman whom you saw represents the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth."

Jerusalem, who had the role to bring God’s law to the rest of the nations, had a spiritual sovereignty over all the nations.

Psalm 2:6-9
" ‘I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.’ I will proclaim the decree of the LORD, who said to me, ‘You are my son; today I am your father. Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth. With an iron rod you shall shepherd them, like a clay pot you will shatter them.’ "





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MY PEOPLE



And a very important verse is Revelation 18: 4

Revelation 18:4
"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
‘Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues ...’ "

God said, "Come out of her, my people …"

Who does "my people" refer to and where are they at ? These are the important questions. The term "my people" is the key.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. .. .. .. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The term "my people" is covenant language. It is a reference of people who were in a covenant relationship with God. This becomes even more evident when we examine just what it means to be in a covenant. A covenant is very different than a contract. A covenant is as different from a contract as marriage is different from prostitution. In a contract two people exchanges goods and services. "This becomes yours and that becomes mine," or "I will do this for you and you will do that for me." However, contracts can be broken.

A covenant is an exchange of persons. "I will become yours and you will become mine."

Ezekiel 37: 26-27 "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My dwelling place shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

The important question here is, where were many of God’s people when John wrote this Book ? They were still in the Old Covenant, in old worldly Jerusalem and God wanted them to leave that and come into the New Covenant. God could refer to them as "my people" because they were in His Old Covenant. The good becomes the enemy of the best if it causes you to reject the best.

Hebrews 13:12-14
"Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the gate, to consecrate the people by his own blood. Let us then go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach that he bore. For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the one that is to come." NAB





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CONCLUSION



The descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob [Israel] are God's chosen people. He has chosen to reveal Himself through them and through the Jewish Messiah that was born to Mary, Jesus. By the covenants that God has made with this chosen race He has made them His “firstborn,” and through them God's plan for salvation is made known. [Cf. Psalm 89:28, John 4:22] They illustrate the two paths that mankind can choose, good and evil. There are many examples in this chosen race of holy faith and virtuous living made possible by the grace of God that are revealed for us to emulate. And there are examples of mankind at his worst that are also revealed to us as a warning. One such example is the Jewish leaders of 33 - 70 AD who rejected Truth, Beauty, Love, that is, God Himself. And so, the Whore of Babylon is a code name for the corrupt Jerusalem of the 33 - 70 AD time period, upon whom God's judgment fell.

As a side note: a significant number of the Jews in Jerusalem had converted to Christianity. However, when 2.1 million Jews were slaughtered in Jerusalem in 70 AD none of the Christians that had lived there were killed. They had escaped by leaving Jerusalem before the Romans came. They had been forewarned in the Bible to get out of there.

[knuckle]

Was herod the dragon waiting to eat up the Christ child ?

The revelation is timeless it is it was and it is to come

here is where 666 comes from

2Ch 9:13 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;
2Ch 9:14 Beside that which chapmen and merchants brought. And all the kings of Arabia and governors of the country brought gold and silver to Solomon.
2Ch 9:15 And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of beaten gold went to one target.
2Ch 9:16 And three hundred shields made he of beaten gold: three hundred shekels of gold went to one shield. And the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.
2Ch 9:17 Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with pure gold.

implements of war and seats of power

What did Christ preach?--love one another even you enemies and let those who will lead be a servant

cc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

So was Nero the beast?Sure was just as Saul of Tarsus and Simon Bar Jonah and knuckle and Cepha and the pope were all the beast but now we are a new creation in Christ.

Do you know why God's people are called out of Babylon?because that is where we start out----all of us,every one


much love---------------knuckle

[Cepha]

knuckle said:

Was herod the dragon waiting to eat up the Christ child ?

The revelation is timeless it is it was and it is to come

here is where 666 comes from

2Ch 9:13 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;
2Ch 9:14 Beside that which chapmen and merchants brought. And all the kings of Arabia and governors of the country brought gold and silver to Solomon.
2Ch 9:15 And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of beaten gold went to one target.
2Ch 9:16 And three hundred shields made he of beaten gold: three hundred shekels of gold went to one shield. And the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.
2Ch 9:17 Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with pure gold.

implements of war and seats of power

What did Christ preach?--love one another even you enemies and let those who will lead be a servant

cc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

So was Nero the beast?Sure was just as Saul of Tarsus and Simon Bar Jonah and knuckle and Cepha and the pope were all the beast but now we are a new creation in Christ.

Do you know why God's people are called out of Babylon?because that is where we start out----all of us,every one


much love---------------knuckle

Only one "theory" has a place for all the instances and characters in Rev 12 and that's that Mary is the woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, along with that she fled into the desert (Egypt) to flee from the persecution of The Dragon and retured back to Jerusalem 1260 days later (which is precisely when Herod died) and Israel/Jeruselum rejected and condemned Jesus to death so she couldn't be His mother and not only that...it still rejects Jesus Christ as a nation. Mary didn't reject or crucify or spit on Christ.

Unless you think all this is just coincidence?

In my opinion, there are no coincidences in scripture.

[Cepha]

666=Nero.

This is historical fact (not religious theory).

In the book of Rev, the beast was named "Nero" first, then the numbers 666 were used to hide the name as the book was passed around. This fact had t be hidden from the Romans.

This is traced back to a 3 century manuscript. There have been other numbers used (615, 665, etc...) depending on the translation (whether Latin or Koine or Greek, etc...).

[Cepha]

And here's your proof:

Name
One interpretation is that 666 encodes the letters of someone’s name or title, identifying the Antichrist.


Nero
Scholars who believe that the Book of Revelation refers to historical people and events argue that the number represents Nero. In Hebrew gematria, every letter has a corresponding number. Summing these numbers gives a numeric value to a word or name.

In Hebrew, "Nero Caesar" is spelled “ðøåï ÷ñø”, pronounced "Neron Qesar".

Adding the corresponding values yields 666, as shown:

Resh Samekh Qoph Nun vav Resh Nun=TOTAL
200 60 100 50 6 200 50 =666

The hypothesis that 666 is a code for a Roman emperor seems to have historical support. The emperors were noted for their oppression of both Jews and Christians. Both communities were known to use numerology, codes and symbols (such as the Ichthys) when living under Roman rule to avoid persecution.

[knuckle]

Hi Cepha--------------

THE NUMBER 666

"Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the NUMBER OF THE BEAST: for it is the NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six [666]" (Rev. 13:18).

Is this indeed what the Greek manuscripts of Rev. 13:18 state? No, it is not.

The Greek word used when only man is meant (always excluding woman), is aner. But the Greek word translated "man" in Rev. 13:18 is not aner, but rather the word anthropos, which means "a human being, male or female." Strong’s Concordant.Further more there is no "A" no qualifier to make the word singular it is plural---every man every woman


666 is the number of ALL of mankind


here is the transliteral----- Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six


much love--------------knuckle

[knuckle]

You know that the woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet----that was an actual astronomical event that coincided with the Bethlehem star------is it the virgin Mary?yes is it Israel?yes it is is it the church? yes again---- is was and is to come

the same event occurred at the crucifiction during the earthquake but this time the moon was in eclipse (red) to signify the blood shed


only once in a million years could these events occur and they just happened to occur at the birth and death of a single man?If you have a chance go to an observatory that has a virtual clock and run the heavens backward to palistine june 2 bc and april 3,33ad


you will be amazed


much love--------------knuckle

[Cepha]

knuckle You know that the woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet----that was an actual astronomical event that coincided with the Bethlehem star------is it the virgin Mary?yes is it Israel?yes it is is it the church? yes again---- is was and is to come

Mary, of course. She was the one who gave birth to Jesus, was the one who put Satan under her feet because of her work and stomped out the death that Eve introduced to mankind and she is the one who had Jesus who is The Light inside of her (John 1).

How is it Israel?

Israel rejected Jesus Christ and still (as a nation) rejects Him and denies His Divinity, right?

Also, it can't be The Church because The Church was created by Christ. The Church didn't create Christ. Christ comes "from" this woman in this chapter.

the same event occurred at the crucifiction during the earthquake but this time the moon was in eclipse (red) to signify the blood shed

Jesus died at noon...in the middle of the day (between noon and 3:00pm). It was the sun that was up.

There is scientific proof for the star of Bethleham for sure. Supposedly, it occured during the first week of January.

[Cepha]

knuckle said:

Hi Cepha--------------

THE NUMBER 666

"Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the NUMBER OF THE BEAST: for it is the NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six [666]" (Rev. 13:18).

Is this indeed what the Greek manuscripts of Rev. 13:18 state? No, it is not.

The Greek word used when only man is meant (always excluding woman), is aner. But the Greek word translated "man" in Rev. 13:18 is not aner, but rather the word anthropos, which means "a human being, male or female." Strong’s Concordant.Further more there is no "A" no qualifier to make the word singular it is plural---every man every woman


666 is the number of ALL of mankind


here is the transliteral----- Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six


much love--------------knuckle

Ok, what about the fact that the earliest manuscripts read 615 or 665? That would totally knock 666 out of the box Especially since 615 and 665 "still" read as Ceasar.

The name written before the numbers were used was "Ceasar
Nero" in the orginial Language.

Are you using Ancient Greek or Modern Greek to get your definition? You do know that there are two Greek languages for scripture, right?

Some translations chose to use modern Greek instead of the Koine in which it was written.

What "version" of The Bible are you using?

And how do you get past the undeniable fact that John was using numerology as code for hiding the meaning of the book from The Romans?

[knuckle]

lets quote from your bible

18] This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a(the) human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

now I have heard you argue how the catholic church was chosen to bring us this bible with all its cannon and I would imagine that this translation is trust worthy----agreed?


much love------------knuckle

[knuckle]

the sun was darkened Cepha

[Cepha]

Apr 6, 2008 19:29:32 GMT -5 knuckle said:

the sun was darkened Cepha

Right..."not" The Moon.

[Cepha]

Apr 6, 2008 19:18:48 GMT -5 knuckle said:

lets quote from your bible

18] This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a(the) human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

now I have heard you argue how the catholic church was chosen to bring us this bible with all its cannon and I would imagine that this translation is trust worthy----agreed?


much love------------knuckle

Or course. That human is Nero.

(and if you want to use our Bible, note the following footnote about that number: Footnotes: "Revelation 13:18 One early ms reads 616")

[I.M.Apologetics]

Emily, Cephas got a point...
Just because someone uses the Bible to justify their views doesn't make it right.

This is why there are 45000 Protestant denominations and 1 holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Also, remember in CUSA my posts about Contraception and Abortion, how some "Christians" use the Bible to justify these things? Or look online for "Christian" homosexuals, I saw a website which used the Bible, and the Bible only, to prove that homosexuality is ok and homosexual acts are ok.

Remember, too, that Jehovah's Witness also go by the Bible alone, and this is why they reject the doctrine of the Trinity or the divinity of Jesus.