Grace

[knuckle]

Hi All----------

Would like to get an idea of the catholic view of what "grace" is as it applies to our walk from a catholic perspective.

KJB and RSF were discussing the topic heavily on the other board so I thought we might discuss it here as well.

much love--------knuckle

[Cepha]

Good question Knucks.

Grace (my belief) is The Work of God in your life.
When He is pleased with you, He blesses your walk.
He opens your spiritual eyes when you are close to Him.

The "official" definition by The Church is:

Catechism of The Catholic Church
II. GRACE
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48


Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50


Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:


If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:


Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.


A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58

[Cepha]

I voted None.
I believe Grace is a gift from God.
I've received Grace when I didn't deserve it.
I can't speak for God so I can't say if it's earned.
Anything earned is a reward.
I don't think Grace is a reward, but a gift.
I could be wrong though, so I won't profess that.

[knuckle]

I think you understand it fine Now if we didn't earn grace and it is unmerited is it given to all?

[Cepha]

Jun 13, 2008 15:57:30 GMT -5 knuckle said:

I think you understand it fine Now if we didn't earn grace and it is unmerited is it given to all?

Again, another great question. These are things I don't think about generally.

Is it given to all?
Hmmm...how can a person who doesn't believe in God accept the gift of His grace?
It's there through the sacrifice of Christ (justification), but one must knowingly accept that belief.
It cannot be forced or taught to someone.

You could tell someone about grace, but their just hearing that doesn't convince them. They have to take a leap of faith and believe before they can take advantage of that grace.

[cradlecathlic27]

i feel lke grace is something God gives you, its up to the person to deside what to do withit

[knuckle]

Hi All--------------

Lets take a look at what grace is

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [Greek - paideuo], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Now notice the choice of Greek the holy spirit uses to tell us what grace does:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching [Greek - paideuo - same Greek word translated 'chasteneth' in Heb. 12:6] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

So now we know what 'grace' does and we know why God chastens us.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [Greek - paideuo], and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

What is the mode of that chastening? We are told in no uncertain terms:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching [Greek - paideuo - same Greek word translated 'chasteneth' in Heb. 12:6] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;



Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So does Grace mean chastening?No, it does not. The Greek word for 'grace' is 'charis.' Here is Strong's definition of this Greek word:

charis khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

This is the love of a parent-- the gift of discipline and correction that all good parents give to their children is born of grace

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Like the child who is corrected in love he learns self discipline and the parents grace is needed less and less because correction is needed less and less but just because the grace that brings chastisement isn't needed the love that brings grace is always there

'Grace' is God's "gracious love and favor." But what does grace do for us? Well, when we sin grace does much more abound with God's loving Fatherly chastening and scourging until we are brought to see that it feels so good when we finally quit banging our heads against the wall of "turning grace into lasciviousness."

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who soft pedal the consequences of sin never admit to turning grace into lasciviousness. They will even tell you that if God's spirit is in you that you will not sin like you once did. But with the same mouth, and in the same breath they will tell you "Nothing you do or don't do will affect your standing with God. And if you ever go so far as the apostle Paul and tell others to "Be careful to maintain good works," these same people who profess such a high regard for the apostle Paul will accuse you of teaching heresy.

We are saved by Grace which is wonderful but we are judged by works so let us all be vigilant in our walk and may all our steps be pleasing to Him.


much love------------knuckle

[righteousone]

Grace is a gift, when I had my awakening from Padre Pio intercessing on my behalf with Jesus, I went to confession and my priest told me I was in a state of Grace. Read my testimony on the Testimonial board.

[righteousone]

Knuckle, are you a JW? If not, which denomination are you so as to understand your ways of thinking.

[knuckle]

Hi R1-------------

I am a universalist and hold the doctrine of universal reconciliation much of which was taught by Origen There are sites on the internet which believe similar to my self but I came to this understanding from scripture rather than a defined doctrine so I can't say I agree with such and such 100%

I believe in The Father as Supreme God and the origin of everything
I believe in Jesus the only begotten Son of God,who is the creator,the Word and YHVH of the OT
I believe that the term "The Holy Spirit" is used when Father and Son are together
I believe that Jesus holds the "office" of God until man is perfected
I believe that everything (Satan,the Fall,the redemption and eventually the perfecting of man) is all according to The Father's will which is sovereign in all things
I believe in the resurrection,the millennium ,the final judgment and the purifying lake of fire
I believe in the sleep of death,the promise of immortality and the life changing power of the holy ghost


If you would like to discuss any of these ,I would be glad to discuss them with you

As always,much love-----------------knuckle

[cradlecathlic27]

what church do you belong to knuckle?

[knuckle]

Hi Marcie---------------

I attend an Independent Baptist Church (wifey is Baptist) but am not a member.I love the folks there and the evangelistic spirit the church has but our doctrines are like apples and oranges.

I have some JW buddies I study with on occasion and again I love them and their zeal but I don't agree with much of their doctrine either.

Part of the reason I joined this board was to get a closer look at Catholic Doctrine (you folk get a bad rap from protestant circles just like my JW friends do) and again I love you guys and respect your zeal but there is a lot of things we disagree on.

And as an outsider I have to say you folks are not all that different but having been on many many boards you would think that there would not be as much "debate" as the three groups do.Debate being a mild word.

much love------------knuckle

[teresa]

Hi Knuckle

Did you know that the doctrine of universal reconciliation is precisely the reason why Origen is not St. Origen?

The Catholic church gives him utmost respect and agrees with 99% of his teachings--just not that one.

But if universal reconciliation were true, then how does that "reconcile" with Rev. 14

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

"for ever and ever"

how else can you interpret that?

teresa

[knuckle]

Hi Teresa-------------

First I would like to point out that eternity is not a concept in the bible The OT uses the word Olam and the NT uses Aion both of which mean a set period of time an age or eon a more precise translation would read

Rev 14:11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name."

or

Rev 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.


much love-----------knuckle

[teresahrc]

Isaiah 66

22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind

Mark 9
47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[e] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.


Knuckle, how is it then, that "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" ?

And by that same token,
if hell is only for eons and eons, how then is heaven eternal? Doesn't Scripture use the same terminology for heaven?
Are we only in heaven for eons and not for ever?

I know that universalism is a very comfortable theology, but what do you gain by this? If you are wrong, you may be leading people astray that think they are "safe" because they will eventually go to heaven, so why repent?

Again, I hope that no one goes to hell, but that doesn't take away its reality.

teresa

[knuckle]

Hi Teresa---------

Heaven is not spoken of as being eternal---Christ contrasts where one group will be as compared to the other.

Eternal life is life for the age as compared to those who are not in the first resurrection

Mark 9 is a quote of Isa. 66:24: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." but this is not an eternal state it is only for the aion or age between the first resurrection and the second.We know this because Sodom will be restored and given as a daughter to Israel

Eze 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Eze 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,
Eze 16:57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.
Eze 16:58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.
Eze 16:59 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.
Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:


As for repentance,we will all be judged by fire we can either do it here in this life or in the resurrection better to do it here.

You have read the promises to "He who overcomes" in the letters to the churches in revelation,correct?

that is why.


much love------------knuckle

[teresahrc]

Knuckle,

You're starting to sound Catholic! You said:

"As for repentance,we will all be judged by fire we can either do it here in this life or in the resurrection better to do it here.

You have read the promises to "He who overcomes" in the letters to the churches in revelation,correct?

that is why."

We believe in something called purgatory which is similar to what you are talking about. Yes, we will be judged by fire, but if there is nothing good in what is being purified, then there is only dross.

1 Corinthians 3:
"But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

But if there is none of Christ in you, then there is nothing that will survive. If I dug up some of the earth and put it in a furnace and there is gold in it, then the fire will purge away everything but the gold. But if there is nothing but dirt, then what will be saved?
If the Lord is going to separate the sheep from the goats, then how can we all be sheep?

Yes, we will be judged with fire.

Hebrews 2: 1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?

teresa

[righteousone]

Ok Knuckle, then that explains your answers. Since I've studied all religions and know that the Catholic church was truly the church founded by Jesus Christ and no other, I have touched on your "religon" also.
UU is an unusual religious organization. Your members include Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, Humanists, Wiccans or other religious tradition.
You adapt your beliefs to THE FINDINGS OF SCIENCE. It is also ok for homosexuals and bi-sexuals to marry, this is not of Christ, therefore a religion that also has no creed and no doctrine. It is incompatible with historical, biblical Christianity and you also read from the Koran...all contradictions of Jesus Christ.
Your history is not from Christ, therefore your religion is not from Christ.

[knuckle]

Hi R1

I have no idea what UU is Bro.I take my findings from scripture alone believe that Jesus is the only way and take a hard line against sin of any kind.

I have studied the Koran because I feel a great passion for the Islamic folk and believe they need Jesus and witness to them when I am able


Teresa----------

Ten righteous men could not be found in Sodom and if any group embodies the "empty ground" in your illustration I would imagine it would be them yet I have to accept what is written in Ezekiel and believe that they will be restored

In Matthew 13 Christ gives the parable of the hidden treasure---we the believer are that treasure but to get it Christ bought the whole field (the whole human race) that is why ----1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially(but not exclusively) of those that believe.

much love-------------knuckle

[cradlecathlic27]

Hey knuckle, i like how you have come here to see for yourself, that we are not as bad as what others mostly baptist say about us. That is very awesome of you,