Lazarus

[knuckle]

Hi All---------

Is Lazarus and the rich man literal or parable and why do you see it as you do?


much love------------knuckle

[Cepha]

Literal Parable. ;D

Really though, hard to say. I don't know what Jesus saw or experienced.
It could've been true. I don't know.

But, what I see as important is the message.

The Parable
"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'"

"But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'"

"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'"

"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'"

"And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'"

"He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'" (Luke 16:19-31 RSV)

Here's a commentary on it that makes some interesting points;

The rich man in the parable was condemned for his self-reliant
(he trusted in his wealth rather than God),
unrepentant (he heard the truth but rejected it)
and cruel (he feasted while a sick, starving man laid at his gate)
behavior, not necessarily his wealth.

The Bible plainly states that faithful Abraham (see Abraham, Man Of Faith)
will be in the Kingdom of God,
and yet Abraham himself was extremely wealthy during the part of his life
that God judged him as righteous:
"Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold" (Genesis 13:2) and had many hundreds of servants (Genesis 14:14).

www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000823.htm

[Cepha]

It would seem from that passage that the dead returning to the living to warn them was something that was believed in back then.

Ultimately, Jesus teaches that there will be no excuse for those who have The Law. For us Christians, The Law is The Gospel. So for us also there will be no excuses for our behaviour.

We won't be able to say that "I didn't know" when we are judged.

Darn Knucks, you've just put so much thought in my head.

Promise me that no matter how dumb I act, you'll never stop gracing our pages with your wise words.

You are graced brother. I need some of that grace myself.

I wonder how many Anti-Catholic sites have a Catholic as a Moderator on their staff. ;D

__________________________________________________________

Another point is that Abraham is seen, but where is he seen?

Isn't he supposed to be dead? And if he is dead, then how can he be talking to someone in hell?

So, either Abraham was saved before Jesus was born or he was released from "sleep" (limbo of soul until Jesus' sacrifice was accomplished as was referenced when The Saints arose from their tombs in Matthew 27:52).

So, either way, this would've had to have happened "after" the Crucifixition. So it must be a parable...UNLESS!

Abraham was saved before Jesus was Sacrificed.

Deep.

[cradlecathlic27]

I have a question. Do bible only christians, believe everything that is said in the bible and that none of the stories are parables?

[Cepha]

Jun 20, 2008 20:15:52 GMT -5 cradlecathlic27 said:

I have a question. Do bible only christians, believe everything that is said in the bible and that none of the stories are parables?

That's a good question.

I believe they don't believe that all of the stories are literal.

So, outside of a teaching magistarium, that leaves The Bible up to their own personal interpretatioin which results in the varying denominational sects they divided by doctrinal belief.

[cradlecathlic27]

Add to my question... are the stories in the bible either literal or parable only?

[knuckle]

Hi all-----------------

We know which of Jesus' stories were parables by the audience He spoke to

as for your second question Marcie ---- the bible uses alot of physical symbols for spiritual truths
but other than symbolical passages the answer would be yes either a parable or literal.

much love---------------knuckle

[cradlecathlic27]

So when he says "this is my body" and "this is my blood" AND "do this in remembrance of me" Are these literal or parable? Must be literal, because it is not a parable.

[Cepha]

Jun 22, 2008 21:20:47 GMT -5 cradlecathlic27 said:

So when he says "this is my body" and "this is my blood" AND "do this in remembrance of me" Are these literal or parable? Must be literal, because it is not a parable.

Those parts are literally literal.

Know how we know?

Because he was asked by someone if it was literal and he answered "truly" that it was his flesh and blood. "Truly" means literal.

There is no room or excuse for confusioin.

When Jesus said it was His flesh and body, He meant it without a shadow of a doubt.

Some who couldn't accept what He said, walked with Him no more...Know which verse that was?

John 6:66
"Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

So whoever doesn't accept The Word of Christ that it is His flesh and blood, is "not" walking with Christ.

[knuckle]

Hi catholics-----------

at what point do the elements transform?

much love-----------knuckle

[Cepha]

Jun 23, 2008 13:00:07 GMT -5 knuckle said:

Hi catholics-----------

at what point do the elements transform?

much love-----------knuckle

They don't transform into human flesh and blood.

Jesus "redefines" what consecrated unleavened bread and wine are.

So, if He through which all was created and came into being says it is now His flesh and blood, it just is what He says it is.

He sets the definitions. In His words, His particular flesh & blood now include consecrated bread and wine.

This transubstantiation happens at the moment that Jesus The Priest held up the bread and wine at The Last Supper...this is repeated today by Priests as He asked us to do.

[Cepha]

Let's redirect this exchange to this thread:

fideidefensor.proboards80.com/index.cgi?board=religiouspractices&action=display&thread=65

[knuckle]

Hi All----------------

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Joh 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

This is spoken to the multitude and is a parable


Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

this is spoken to the eleven and is a kingdom secret a symbolic picture

Paul testifies to it like this-------1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.


much love--------------knuckle