Please debate me...I'm bored!!!

[teresahrc]

So, I need a good debate, I don't cry, pout or walk away even if I'm losing. Any topic will do, but preferably a Christian/religious topic.

Teresa

[Cepha]

Jun 28, 2008 18:13:13 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

So, I need a good debate, I don't cry, pout or walk away even if I'm losing. Any topic will do, but preferably a Christian/religious topic.

Teresa

LOL!

Ok Theresa!

Tell you what, pick a topic and see if anybody bites.

[wonbyone]

I have one I've been curious about for some time but first I want you to know I'm not picking on Catholics. I've spent more time defending Catholics against those who accuse them of worshiping The Virgin Mary, trying to get people to understand the difference between reverence and worship. I did hear one priest address the parish about worshiping saints; that many Catholics do but they, too, needed to learn the difference between reverence and worship b'c, he said, Catholicism is about worshiping Jesus, not His saints or mother. That really struck me b'c I'd heard just the opposite from many a presumptuous critic for so long before I decided to attend a mass.

My issue is the suspicion that so many Catholics don't seem to realize they're Christian---not only first and foremost, but at all. I've heard more Catholics than I can count on my 20 digits--north and south--say, "I used to be Catholic, now I'm Christian", or, "I'm not Christian, I'm Catholic", statements such as that. I can understand how one could lose what they're there for if they don't study b'c I got confused during mass a lot. I didn't know what to do most of the time myself, being both a new Christian at the time and new to mass. So, my question is for the Catholics here--why do so many Catholics not know that Catholicism is one of over 30,000 (not all verified) denominations of Christianity? It seems almost absurd to not know that much about your own faith.

[Cepha]

Jun 29, 2008 1:37:09 GMT -5 wonbyone said:

I have one I've been curious about for some time but first I want you to know I'm not picking on Catholics. I've spent more time defending Catholics against those who accuse them of worshiping The Virgin Mary, trying to get people to understand the difference between reverence and worship. I did hear one priest address the parish about worshiping saints; that many Catholics do but they, too, needed to learn the difference between reverence and worship b'c, he said, Catholicism is about worshiping Jesus, not His saints or mother. That really struck me b'c I'd heard just the opposite from many a presumptuous critic for so long before I decided to attend a mass.

My issue is the suspicion that so many Catholics don't seem to realize they're Christian---not only first and foremost, but at all. I've heard more Catholics than I can count on my 20 digits--north and south--say, "I used to be Catholic, now I'm Christian", or, "I'm not Christian, I'm Catholic", statements such as that. I can understand how one could lose what they're there for if they don't study b'c I got confused during mass a lot. I didn't know what to do most of the time myself, being both a new Christian at the time and new to mass. So, my question is for the Catholics here--why do so many Catholics not know that Catholicism is one of over 30,000 (not all verified) denominations of Christianity? It seems almost absurd to not know that much about your own faith.

Here's the most reasonable breakdown:

1/3 of Catholics are devout practicing Catholics.
The others are what I call "Christmas/Easter" Catholics.
They only come to Church when it's convenient for them
or when they need to have their children baptized or when
they need to get married.

Now, considering that we are the largest Christian Church
"in" The United States by far (out of the 225 Million Christians,
we make up 75 Mil of them, the rest are broken up by the
various denominations), you're more likely to bump into a
"lapsed" Catholic (a non-devout member) than a lapsed
Protestant. We have the largest number of devout practioners
of all the Christian religions her...well over 20 million.

The Catholic/Christian distinction is certainly "not" one you
will find among devout Catholics and only ignorant Protestants
would say that Catholics "aren't" Christians. Matter of fact,
that makes them both ignorant.

Every church has it's regulars and it's stragglers, but because we are the largest Christian Church, ours will be more noticable.

And finally, one correction. Catholicism is "not" a denomination "of" Christianity. We are the first Christian Church. It literally "is" Christianity. The Bible you read, the doctrines of Salvation and of The Holy Spirit all come from us. Every other Christian religion is a denomination of us.

All "catholic" means is "universal". We are the "universal" Church because we are not founded on or based on any region or event or person (like Anglicanism or Pentecostalism or Lutheranism, etc...). We are truly a "universal" (Catholic) Church.

All non-Catholic churches can be traced to a human founder.
Only The Catholic Church is traced back to Saint Peter:
____________________________________________________

Church Year Established Founder Where Established

Catholic 33 Jesus Christ Jerusalem
____________________________________________________
Orthodox 1054 Schismatic Catholic
Bishops Constantinople

Lutheran 1517 Martin Luther Germany

Anabaptist 1521 Nicholas Storch & Thomas Munzer Germany

Anglican 1534 Henry VIII England

Mennonites 1536 Menno Simons Switzerland

Calvinist 1555 John Calvin Switzerland

Presbyterian 1560 John Knox Scotland

Congregational 1582 Robert Brown Holland

Baptist 1609 John Smyth Amsterdam

Dutch Reformed 1628 Michaelis Jones New York

Congregationalist 1648 Pilgrims and Puritans Massachusetts

Quakers 1649 George Fox England

Amish 1693 Jacob Amman France

Freemasons 1717 Masons from four lodges London

Methodist 1739 John & Charles
Wesley England

Unitarian 1774 Theophilus Lindey London

Methodist Episcopal 1784 60 Preachers Baltimore, MD

Episcopalian 1789 Samuel Seabury American Colonies

United Brethren 1800 Philip Otterbein &
Martin Boehn Maryland

Disciples of Christ 1827 Thomas & Alexander
Campbell Kentucky

Mormon 1830 Joseph Smith New York

Methodist Protestant 1830 Methodist United States

Church of Christ 1836 Warren Stone &
Alexander Campbell Kentucky

Seventh Day Adventist 1844 Ellen White Washington, NH

Christadelphian (Brethren
of Christ 1844 John Thomas Richmond, VA

Salvation Army 1865 William Booth London

Holiness 1867 Methodist United States

Jehovah's Witnesses 1874 Charles Taze Russell Pennsylvania

Christian Science 1879 Mary Baker Eddy Boston

Church of God in Christ 1895 Various churches of God Arkansas

Church of Nazarene c. 1850-1900 Various religious bodies Pilot Point, TX

Pentecstal 1901 Charles F. Parkham Topeka, KS

Aglipayan 1902 Gregorio Aglipay Philippines

Assemblies of God 1914 Pentecostalism Hot Springs, AZ

Iglesia ni Christo 1914 Felix Manalo Philippines

Four-square Gospel 1917 Aimee Semple
McPherson Los Angeles, CA

United Church of Christ 1961 Reformed and
Congregationalist Philadelphia, PA

Calvary Chapel 1965 Chuck Smith Costa Mesa, CA

United Methodist 1968 Methodist and United
Brethren Dallas, TX

Born-again c. 1970s Various religious bodies United States

Harvest Christian 1972 Greg Laurie Riverside, CA

Saddleback 1982 Rick Warren California

Non-denominational c. 1990s various United States
____________________________________________________

[wonbyone]

Jun 29, 2008 11:46:08 GMT -5 Cepha said:

The Catholic/Christian distinction is certainly "not" one you
will find among devout Catholics and only ignorant Protestants
would say that Catholics "aren't" Christians. Matter of fact,
that makes them both ignorant.

You realize I was talking about Catholics saying they're not Christian, right? I've never heard a protestant say that they're not Christian, only that they don't agree with the 'religiosity' of it all, the rituals and such, b'c Yeshua Himself didn't like 'religion'. I've already stated how I feel about that.

And finally, one correction. Catholicism is "not" a denomination "of" Christianity. We are the first Christian Church. It literally "is" Christianity. The Bible you read, the doctrines of Salvation and of The Holy Spirit all come from us. Every other Christian religion is a denomination of us.

Correction, if I may and with all due respect--Catholicism is a denomination since the first Church in true was the Messianics who were instructed to go out into the world and teach the gentiles about Messiah. (Torah) The gentiles made many subtle changes upon the original texts. Have you studied the Torah at all? That's not an accusation, just curious.

[Cepha]

wonbyone
You realize I was talking about Catholics saying they're not Christian, right?

Yep.

I've never heard a protestant say that they're not Christian, only that they don't agree with the 'religiosity' of it all, the rituals and such, b'c Yeshua Himself didn't like 'religion'.

I've never heard a Protestant say that either.
I've never heard a Catholic say that they weren't a Christian.
But I don't doubt that you've heard that.

As for the whole Jesus not being religious, he was literally a Priest who taught at the Temple and who observed His religion's feasts and rituals. He also defended The Pharisitical Office of teachng authority with regards to religion and respected that office.

Correction, if I may and with all due respect--Catholicism is a denomination since the first Church in true was the Messianics who were instructed to go out into the world and teach the gentiles about Messiah.

There never was a Messianic church. There were Messianic Jews and for the first 70 years of Christianity, the overwhelming majority of the first Christians were Jews. Much of the argument in the New Testament is "how" Jewish was Christianity to be or not to be.

The Christian Church was always a "universal" (Catholic) Church. It was never a Messianic church or a Jewish church. It was not recognized by the Jewish authorities.

Jesus instructed those same Apostles He commissioned to make disciples of all ("all" also means "universal") nations (not just of The Jews).

In fact, Christianity was a Jewish sect at first until the first century when it was first called "The Catholic Church" literally by Saint Ignatius (110 A.D.).

That is the first time that The Christian Church was referred to with a name. The race of those who first practiced Christianity doesn't define or name The Church.

After 70, Gentiles became the majority and after that, Christianity became it's own religion no longer a Jewish Sect.

Catholicism (or universal Christianity) is preceded by no other Church. "It" is The Church spoken of "in" The Bible.

In fact, it is The Catholic Church that literally created The Holy Bible.

(Torah) The gentiles made many subtle changes upon the original texts. Have you studied the Torah at all? That's not an accusation, just curious.

I'm still trying to learn The Bible. Of The Old Testament, I prefer (as a Christian) to read from The Septuagint (which is the version of The Old Testament that Jesus and The Apostles and those Christians that God chose to reveal the canon of The Holy Bible to also read.

[teresahrc]

I'm a Catholic Christian.

I have heard of many--protestant missionaries--that wont say they are Christians to the people they are trying to reach. Instead they say they are "followers of Jesus" or something of that sort.
I agree with Cephas, in that Catholics who say they are not Christians but Catholics are probably very ignorant about the faith.
Why we are so proud to be "Catholic" Christians is because we affirm the Nicean creed and the faith of the early Church that believe in "one, holy, Catholic and apostolic CHurch"
I have heard in different songs and protestant creeds the changing of this to say "we believe in one, holy, Christian, and apostolic Church" or something to that nature. I find that quite silly, actually it's sad but I know that they have sincere motives.

[cradlecathlic27]

yeah, i cant count how many times people have told me that im (catholic) not christian...

[jhardin]

Jun 28, 2008 18:13:13 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

So, I need a good debate, I don't cry, pout or walk away even if I'm losing. Any topic will do, but preferably a Christian/religious topic.

Teresa

I'll debate you. I say that the Yankees were stupid for hiring Babe Ruth and the Red Sox are even stupiderer for whining about it.

You don't see the Cardinals whining about anything.. that's why they are awesome.

[Cepha]

Jun 30, 2008 1:36:50 GMT -5 jhardin said:

the Red Sox are even stupiderer

Who's going to debate that J?

LOL!

[cradlecathlic27]

Maybe this can settle it for now...

2008 American League - Standings
AMERICAN W L PCT GB HOME ROAD RS RA DIFF STRK L10

Tampa Bay 49 32 .605 - 30-13 19-19 382 327 +55 Won 1 7-3
LA Angels 49 33 .598 .5 22-18 27-15 340 328 +12 Won 1 6-4
Boston 50 34 .595 .5 31-10 19-24 424 351 +73 Lost 2 5-5
Chicago Sox 46 35 .568 3 27-11 19-24 393 308 +85 Won 4 6-4
Minnesota 45 37 .549 4.5 27-17 18-20 394 385 +9 Won 1 9-1
Oakland 44 37 .543 5 27-21 17-16 357 298 +59 Lost 2 5-5
NY Yankees 44 38 .537 5.5 22-18 22-20 385 364 +21 Lost 1 5-5
Baltimore 41 39 .513 7.5 22-12 19-27 361 364 -3 Lost 1 5-5
Detroit 41 40 .506 8 25-17 16-23 393 389 +4 Won 5 8-2
Texas 42 41 .506 8 21-18 21-23 456 467 -11 Won 1 6-4
Toronto 40 43 .482 10 22-19 18-24 344 316 +28 Won 2 5-5
Cleveland 37 45 .451 12.5 22-22 15-23 361 350 +11 Lost 2 4-6
Kansas City 37 45 .451 12.5 19-21 18-24 335 382 -47 Lost 2 7-3
Seattle 31 50 .383 18 15-24 16-26 331 390 -59 Won 3 6-4

[Cepha]

Jun 30, 2008 12:02:15 GMT -5 cradlecathlic27 said:

Maybe this can settle it for now...

2008 American League - Standings
AMERICAN W L PCT GB HOME ROAD RS RA DIFF STRK L10

Tampa Bay 49 32 .605 - 30-13 19-19 382 327 +55 Won 1 7-3
LA Angels 49 33 .598 .5 22-18 27-15 340 328 +12 Won 1 6-4
Boston 50 34 .595 .5 31-10 19-24 424 351 +73 Lost 2 5-5
Chicago Sox 46 35 .568 3 27-11 19-24 393 308 +85 Won 4 6-4
Minnesota 45 37 .549 4.5 27-17 18-20 394 385 +9 Won 1 9-1
Oakland 44 37 .543 5 27-21 17-16 357 298 +59 Lost 2 5-5
NY Yankees 44 38 .537 5.5 22-18 22-20 385 364 +21 Lost 1 5-5
Baltimore 41 39 .513 7.5 22-12 19-27 361 364 -3 Lost 1 5-5
Detroit 41 40 .506 8 25-17 16-23 393 389 +4 Won 5 8-2
Texas 42 41 .506 8 21-18 21-23 456 467 -11 Won 1 6-4
Toronto 40 43 .482 10 22-19 18-24 344 316 +28 Won 2 5-5
Cleveland 37 45 .451 12.5 22-22 15-23 361 350 +11 Lost 2 4-6
Kansas City 37 45 .451 12.5 19-21 18-24 335 382 -47 Lost 2 7-3
Seattle 31 50 .383 18 15-24 16-26 331 390 -59 Won 3 6-4

Hmmm...I thought "this" already did?

[teresahrc]

I don't care who is "stupider". Get over it. I don' watch baseball to see who's smarter anyways. I just like the game.
Go yankees!

[Cepha]

Jun 30, 2008 12:18:24 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

Go yankees!

How can I debate with "that"?

LOL!

;D

[wonbyone]

Jun 29, 2008 17:26:08 GMT -5 Cepha said:

There never was a Messianic church. There were Messianic Jews and for the first 70 years of Christianity, the overwhelming majority of the first Christians were Jews. Much of the argument in the New Testament is "how" Jewish was Christianity to be or not to be.

Not by name but isn't a gathering of worshipers a church, regardless of their gathering place? I don't know, I'm asking. It's all semantics to me. I'm what I consider the equivalent to a newborn baby as a Messianic. I've felt drawn to it from almost the very beginning of my Christian life. I put it on the back burner b'c I didn't know where to start and, like with Catholicism, there's so much to learn and remember. But the hunger for more knowledge of it has gotten so much stronger in recent months and I'm starting Hebrew lessons this fall so I can study the original texts. You seem very knowledgeable, if you can point me to someone or someplace to start I'd really appreciate it.

[Cepha]

Jun 30, 2008 15:35:06 GMT -5 wonbyone said:

Not by name but isn't a gathering of worshipers a church, regardless of their gathering place? I don't know, I'm asking.

I guess that would depend on who you ask.

While there are several definitions to the word "church", when talking Biblically, I believe that a church is a group of believers who all worship in the same manner with the same doctrine using the same scriptures. This is the very soul of The Church mentioned in The Bible and is what Paul especially fought hard for.

It's all semantics to me.

LOL! Yeah, that's what I said! ;D

I'm what I consider the equivalent to a newborn baby as a Messianic.

Are you a Messianic Jew?

I've felt drawn to it from almost the very beginning of my Christian life. I put it on the back burner b'c I didn't know where to start and, like with Catholicism, there's so much to learn and remember. But the hunger for more knowledge of it has gotten so much stronger in recent months and I'm starting Hebrew lessons this fall so I can study the original texts.

Wow. Well with regards to The Catholic Church, it can never be mastered because it is a growing living and breathing organism.

A person who converts to universal Christianity doesn't master the faith. It is an ongoing conversion, a perpetual examination of one's self to strive to perfect themselves more and more everyday. While I do believe in overnight conversions where a person can do a complete 180 degree turn around in their lives and they live the rest of their lives like that, to me, that's a rarity.

Here's a website you might enjoy.

It's The Aramaic Bible (translated from the Aramaic language to truly reflect what Jesus and The Apostles really taught more accurately):

www.v-a.com/bible/

You seem very knowledgeable, if you can point me to someone or someplace to start I'd really appreciate it.

Look at that! I was ahead of you! I didn't even read this post as I answered it!

Here's a book that provided undeniable simple truths to me that I was left to confirm for myself:

www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp




(And thank you for the compliment! I myself after 10 years am just a baby...don't ever let go of that mindset! )

[wonbyone]

Cool. Thank you for the links. I'm not a Messianic Jew but I'm trying. I'm not even Jewish but that doesn't matter. My great grandfather was Russian Jew but that doesn't count according to Jewish law. LOL Not laughing at them, it just seems strange to me that my great grandfather can be the last chief of the Tsimshian Nation and that makes me descendant of a royal family, but it doesn't work that way in Judaism. As for the royal family--a lot of people laugh at that simply b'c it's First Nations (Indian). For that reason, they don't take it seriously, but they sure do if it's Caucasian. [/rant] LOL By the way, I have an interesting story about when I found out I'm from a "royal family". At least I think it's interesting. I had 'words' with The Father over it. LOL I'll tell you sometime if you're interested. I feel funny about going on about myself so I always ask if anyone wants to hear it first. If I do say so myself, I have some interesting stories concerning my faith. But then, I may be a bit biased.

[teresahrc]

Where did (do?) the Tsimshian Nation live?
Did you know about Our Lady of Guadalupe? She is patroness of the AMericas and specifically to Native Americans (and also to the unborn) . You should read the story about her.

[wonbyone]

Jun 30, 2008 17:03:01 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

Where did (do?) the Tsimshian Nation live?
Did you know about Our Lady of Guadalupe? She is patroness of the AMericas and specifically to Native Americans (and also to the unborn) . You should read the story about her.

Hi. The Tsimshians are from British Columbia, Metlakatla, originally. Then, around the turn of the last century they immigrated to Annette Island, Alaska, New Metlakatla. My great grandfather (the last Tsimshian chief) took half his tribe and the other half remained in BC.

I know about Our Lady of Guadalupe from my short time at the Catholic Church and from my mom who used to be Catholic. I love watching the stories of Medugoria, Lourdes, Fatima, etc. Is there a thread already going on about those? I'd like to hear updates and stuff.

[Cepha]

Jun 30, 2008 16:42:34 GMT -5 wonbyone said:

Cool. Thank you for the links. I'm not a Messianic Jew but I'm trying. I'm not even Jewish but that doesn't matter. My great grandfather was Russian Jew but that doesn't count according to Jewish law. LOL Not laughing at them, it just seems strange to me that my great grandfather can be the last chief of the Tsimshian Nation and that makes me descendant of a royal family, but it doesn't work that way in Judaism. As for the royal family--a lot of people laugh at that simply b'c it's First Nations (Indian). For that reason, they don't take it seriously, but they sure do if it's Caucasian. [/rant] LOL By the way, I have an interesting story about when I found out I'm from a "royal family". At least I think it's interesting. I had 'words' with The Father over it. LOL I'll tell you sometime if you're interested. I feel funny about going on about myself so I always ask if anyone wants to hear it first. If I do say so myself, I have some interesting stories concerning my faith. But then, I may be a bit biased.

I'm Puerto Rican. I'm about 95% Spanish and 5% Taino Indian (from the island).

I was born with a birth mark on my forhead (right in the center). We call it a "luna" or moon. As I grew up and my skin stretched, the moon rose and went up into my hairline.

The thing is that my aunt (who is majorly Taina) told me that there is a legend. She told me that that moon is a sign of a Taino King. Supposedly, it comes about once every hundred years.

Supposedly, I can never be under anybody's authority, but I will never lead either. I don't have any alliance to any man but myself. I will never be controlled and I will always work to contribute to my people.

She told me that I would be protected from worldly addictions and to this day, I have never drunk alcohol, done drugs or smoked cigarettes. She said I will have a nature to be righteous and that I will not be able to live an evil life. I will never be comfortable among common men or among society in general.

And I have to admit that she read me like a book.

She's a Pentecostal Minister with her own church.

I have two beautiful daughters. One looks like a pure Spaniard and the other one looks like a Taina Indian (yes, both have the same mother who looks pure Spanish and I look pure Spanish).