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Post by teresahrc on Jun 29, 2008 20:24:14 GMT -5
Okay, let me admit, that although I super love my Muslim friends, I don't particularly care for their religion's views on my religion. (that Jesus didn't really die, we corrupted the Bible etc.)
However, as it says in the Catechism (my paraphrase kinda) that all truth where ever it may be found is God's truth.
that being said...
I have found some really beautiful things about sufism. I had a super crazy vision while in Istanbul that led me to a part of town where not only the old Italians lived long ago-(Catholics) but also musicians, artists and sufis (this is where the whirling dervishes began)
Among the things I like about them is their deep mysticism and worship with music and dance. ALso, much of their poetry
for example: Rumi
"Come, Come again
Whoever you are
Whether you are infidel,idolater or wanderer
Whether you have broken your vows a hundred times
Ours is not a caravan of despair
This is the gate of hope
Come, come yet again, come"
I find a lot of redeemable things in Sufism. Actually, I hope to live in Istanbul and by God's mercy show them Catholic charismatic love
Peace
teresa
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2008 21:11:38 GMT -5
I love the truths in Islam too!
They have a lot in common with us (manner of worship, they believe in physical signs, they use sacramentals, they believe in Holy Places, they venerate Mary [devoting a whole book to her in The Quran], etc...).
Of course, I'm not talking about Muslim Fundamentalists, but the true Muslims.
I heard (but can't prove) that Mohammed had a Catholic Uncle. He definately had Catholic influences in his writings.
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2008 21:14:57 GMT -5
Jerusalum has come!
One of my favorite scenes (especially when Saladin offers King Baldwin his physicians):
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Post by Cepha on Jun 29, 2008 21:26:59 GMT -5
And this scene:
"And every Christian Knight you kill will take ten Saracens with him.
You will destroy your army here and never raise another.
I swear to God to take this city will be the end of you."
(I love that line!)
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2008 12:31:36 GMT -5
"Of course, I'm not talking about Muslim Fundamentalists, but the true Muslims.
I heard (but can't prove) that Mohammed had a Catholic Uncle. He definately had Catholic influences in his writings. "
His uncle, I believe wasn't Catholic but Nestorian which was a heretical group that fled from Egypt after the(Ephesus? or Nicean?) council that condemned their doctrines. So, it is not suprising that if he was influenced by heretical Christianity, he came up with some crazy ideas about Chrisitianity (that Jesus didn't die, that Mary is part of the Trinity etc.)
Just goes to show you how important it is to follow Apostolic Christianity.
Oh, and have you seen the similarities between Islam and Mormonism? It's crazy, but not very surprising.
Islam is a reaction against paganism and heretical Christianity.
Mormonism is a reaction against (humanism?) and heretical Christianity.
By the way, I'm not sure if you realize that "fundament Muslims" are really "true Muslims" because they are following their religion the way it is meant to be followed. I know a man who was a former Professor of Islamic studies at Al Azhar University in Cairo (it's like their Harvard) He is now a Christian and has written several books on the true nature of Islam.(He changed his name to "Mark Gabriel". "Extremists" are actually "Orthodox" Muslims.
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Post by teresahrc on Jun 30, 2008 12:38:39 GMT -5
Ok,.. I think it wasn't his uncle...I;m not sure about his uncle, but this is from Leithart.com
"Peter the Venerable, abbot of the famed abbey of Cluny during the twelfth century, hesitated over whether to call Islam a heresy or a form of paganism, �for I see them, now in the manner of heretics, take certain things from the Christian faith and reject other things; then �Ea thing which no heresy is described as ever having done �Eacting as well as teaching according to pagan custom.�EYet, Peter wrote treatises with titles like Summa totius haeresis Saracenorum (�Summary of all the heresies of the Saracens�E and Liber contra sectam sive haeresim Saracenorum (�A Book against the Sect or Heresy of the Saracens�E, and he viewed Islam as a sum of all Christian heresies. According to Peter, Mohammed himself had been taught by a Nestorian monk named Sergius who �made him a Nestorian Christian,�Eand Mohammed�s teaching was a mish-mash of Sabellianism, Nestorianism, Manicheanism, and Judaism. False teaching was bad enough, but Peter was equally concerned with Muslim practice. Even if, as Peter concedes, the Qur�an records truths about the prophets and Jesus, Muslims reject the sacraments, which is something that �no one besides these heretics ever did.�E
These medieval treatments of Islam find little favor today, even among Christians, yet as a purely historical matter, the medieval accounts have some points in their favor. That Mohammed had contact with a Syrian monk is mentioned in the hadith, collections of Mohammed�s words and actions that serve for most Muslims as a second source of authority alongside the Qur�an. And it is clear that Mohammed had wider contact with Christians. One of the key themes of the Qur�an is a denial of the Trinity, since it is �far from his glory�Efor Allah �to beget a son�E(Sura 4.171; cf. 2.115; 5.73, 116; 6.101; 9.30-31; 18.4-5; 25.2; 112.3). More generally, Nestorian Christianity had by Mohammed�s time spread through Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Persia, and eastward as far as China, and Monophysite Christians had founded churches in Syria and Egypt. Prior to the Islamic conquest of the Middle East and North Africa, those areas were predominantly Christian, if often heretically Christian. It is, furthermore, a vast oversimplification to suggest that these Christians submitted to the superior force of the Islamic sword, since many Christians greeted the Arabian conquest as a liberation, and willingly converted to Islam. Whatever the experience of individuals, as a region and as a culture, the Middle East and North Africa became Islamic by abandoning Christendom. The medieval perspective is true to this extent: The Islamic world is not pagan but apostate."
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Post by Cepha on Jun 30, 2008 12:43:21 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Jun 30, 2008 12:55:41 GMT -5
Ok,.. I think it wasn't his uncle...I;m not sure about his uncle, but this is from Leithart.com "Peter the Venerable, abbot of the famed abbey of Cluny during the twelfth century, hesitated over whether to call Islam a heresy or a form of paganism, �for I see them, now in the manner of heretics, take certain things from the Christian faith and reject other things; then �Ea thing which no heresy is described as ever having done �Eacting as well as teaching according to pagan custom.�EYet, Peter wrote treatises with titles like Summa totius haeresis Saracenorum (�Summary of all the heresies of the Saracens�E and Liber contra sectam sive haeresim Saracenorum (�A Book against the Sect or Heresy of the Saracens�E, and he viewed Islam as a sum of all Christian heresies. According to Peter, Mohammed himself had been taught by a Nestorian monk named Sergius who �made him a Nestorian Christian,�Eand Mohammed�s teaching was a mish-mash of Sabellianism, Nestorianism, Manicheanism, and Judaism. False teaching was bad enough, but Peter was equally concerned with Muslim practice. Even if, as Peter concedes, the Qur�an records truths about the prophets and Jesus, Muslims reject the sacraments, which is something that �no one besides these heretics ever did.�E These medieval treatments of Islam find little favor today, even among Christians, yet as a purely historical matter, the medieval accounts have some points in their favor. That Mohammed had contact with a Syrian monk is mentioned in the hadith, collections of Mohammed�s words and actions that serve for most Muslims as a second source of authority alongside the Qur�an. And it is clear that Mohammed had wider contact with Christians. One of the key themes of the Qur�an is a denial of the Trinity, since it is �far from his glory�Efor Allah �to beget a son�E(Sura 4.171; cf. 2.115; 5.73, 116; 6.101; 9.30-31; 18.4-5; 25.2; 112.3). More generally, Nestorian Christianity had by Mohammed�s time spread through Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Persia, and eastward as far as China, and Monophysite Christians had founded churches in Syria and Egypt. Prior to the Islamic conquest of the Middle East and North Africa, those areas were predominantly Christian, if often heretically Christian. It is, furthermore, a vast oversimplification to suggest that these Christians submitted to the superior force of the Islamic sword, since many Christians greeted the Arabian conquest as a liberation, and willingly converted to Islam. Whatever the experience of individuals, as a region and as a culture, the Middle East and North Africa became Islamic by abandoning Christendom. The medieval perspective is true to this extent: The Islamic world is not pagan but apostate." I was debating with a Christian Anti-Muslim and posted some quotes from The Koran that look like they were lifted directly out of The New Testament. I'll have to find them again. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 15, 2008 2:41:46 GMT -5
“Without ignoring or downplaying our differences as Christians and Muslims, we can and therefore should look to what unites us, namely, belief in the one God, the provident Creator and universal Judge who at the end of time will deal with each person according to his or her actions. We are all called to commit ourselves totally to him and to obey his sacred will,”
Pope Benedict XVI
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Post by Cepha on Aug 15, 2008 2:42:40 GMT -5
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Post by knuckle on Aug 15, 2008 8:10:44 GMT -5
Hi Cepha----------
I am not anti-Muslim but if you can show me where the Mary and Isa of the Koran are in fact the same Mary and Jesus in the bible,well.......
Please do, I have read the Koran and I can't see it
much love------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 16, 2008 10:12:58 GMT -5
Hi Cepha---------- I am not anti-Muslim but if you can show me where the Mary and Isa of the Koran are in fact the same Mary and Jesus in the bible,well....... Please do, I have read the Koran and I can't see it much love------------knuckle That's an unanswerable request. They are literally the Jesus & Mary of the Bible because there was no other prophet named Jesus who was born from a Virgin named Mary. The way you should phrase the question is with regards to your interpretation of Mary & Jesus as opposed to their interpretation of Mary & Jesus' story. There are different "Maries" even within Christianity. For example, the attacks by Anti-Catholics that say that The Catholic Mary (yes, they literally separate Jesus' mother from their own interpretation of Mary with a title) is " different" from the Biblical Mary even though the universal Christian view of Mary is based on The Biblical Mary and has been for almost 2,000 years. When one refers to any Biblical character from The Bible, they are referring to a Biblical character from...The Bible. The only thing that differs among persons beliefs with regards to Mary is the indoctrination/misindoctrination they received from their religious leaders or that they have developed themselves. |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 16, 2008 12:07:09 GMT -5
Hi Cepha--------
I was debating with a Christian Anti-Muslim and posted some quotes from The Koran that look like they were lifted directly out of The New Testament.
I'll have to find them again.
please do......I can't see it
much love--------------------kuckle
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Post by knuckle on Aug 16, 2008 12:08:09 GMT -5
better?
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Post by Cepha on Aug 16, 2008 13:07:45 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------- I was debating with a Christian Anti-Muslim and posted some quotes from The Koran that look like they were lifted directly out of The New Testament. I'll have to find them again. please do......I can't see it much love--------------------kuckle Same here, but I was arguing with an Anti-Christian Muslim. He quoted some Koranic verses that sounded like Christ's own teachings. I told him those were Christian teachings. He reacted just as crazily as any Christian fanatic would and accused me of lieing of being in league with Satan, blah, blah, blah...so I showed him. Needless to say, I never heard from him again.  |
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 15, 2008 14:01:50 GMT -5
The pope is infallible in certain situations, but not everything he does is infallible. Is it possible that he made a mistake when he kissed the Koran?
teresa
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 16, 2008 12:40:18 GMT -5
Wow
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 16, 2008 12:42:08 GMT -5
I so want these guys to be my brothers!
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 16, 2008 12:45:42 GMT -5
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Post by Patrick on Oct 2, 2011 22:26:29 GMT -5
Okay, let me admit, that although I super love my Muslim friends, I don't particularly care for their religion's views on my religion. (that Jesus didn't really die, we corrupted the Bible etc.) However, as it says in the Catechism (my paraphrase kinda) that all truth where ever it may be found is God's truth. that being said... I have found some really beautiful things about sufism. I had a super crazy vision while in Istanbul that led me to a part of town where not only the old Italians lived long ago-(Catholics) but also musicians, artists and sufis (this is where the whirling dervishes began) Among the things I like about them is their deep mysticism and worship with music and dance. ALso, much of their poetry for example: Rumi "Come, Come again Whoever you are Whether you are infidel,idolater or wanderer Whether you have broken your vows a hundred times Ours is not a caravan of despair This is the gate of hope Come, come yet again, come" I find a lot of redeemable things in Sufism. Actually, I hope to live in Istanbul and by God's mercy show them Catholic charismatic love Peace teresa |
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