Jesus (peace be upon him): God or a messenger?

[theoriginalcall]

I have a question for my catholics neighbours. Before you rush to answer this question blindly with 'Jesus is LORD! Jesus is the Saviour!' , I want you to use some common sense , and think.

According to the bible , Jesus (peace be upon him) came to uphold the Mosaic Law of the jews. This judaic law consisted of many laws and regulations for daily life , but its core and foundation is that God is 1 absolute and that only He should be worshipped and taken as Lord and saviour. This Law NEVER tolerated the jews worshipping anyone else than the 1 God , and it NEVER tolerated the jews calling on anyone else than Him. The bible qoutes jesus (pbuh) as saying:

(Matthew 5:17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Not to abolish , but to fulfill the Law , meaning to STILL apply it.

Now I ask you to bring me a logical explanation to this: how on earth could jesus (pbuh) proclaim himself to be God/son of God/saviour other than 1 God Who is in Heaven? This is the WORST breach of the Mosaic Law he came to support in the first place! Jesus (pbuh) claiming to be divine is something a false prophet would say cause it would go against the Mosaic Law and the teachings of the Prophets , but muslims do not say Jesus (pbuh) was a false prophet. We believe that jesus (pbuh) never proclaimed himself to be God , therefore he never went against the Mosaic Law in the first place.

The only profile that would suit Jesus (pbuh) is that he was 100% man , a righteous example for the jews , who belonged with the brotherhood of prophets who all had 1 universal and consistent message: God is 1 , worship and call on Him and NOONE else! If you see any clue of a trinity/pre-existence of jesus (pbuh) in the following verses , plz let me know:

--> (Isa 45:5-7) I am YHWH and there is NO OTHER ; besides ME there are NO GODS ; I have girded you [i.e. protected you] even though you did not know Me. (6) So that they will know from the rising of the sun to the setting that there is NONE BESIDES ME; I am YHWH and there is NO OTHER . (7) The one who forms light and creates darkness, who makes peace and creates evil, I YHWH do ALL these things." (Isa 45:5-7).

--> Commandment 1: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

--> Commandment 2: Do not have any other gods before ME.

Clearly , there is only 1 singular God mentioned. So what can the truth be? Is the Lord of the throne Who created the heavens and the earth in six days , the only God and jesus (pbuh) was 100% man as islam and all prophets taught ? Or is jesus (pbuh) really God and Saviour even tho he would be contradicting himself BIG TIME and breaching the Mosaic Law he was s e n t to support in the first place?

[teresahrc]

Yep, you are correct when you say there is only one God!
Amen Amen Amen

God is one. Not the number 1 but One God. Therefore, Jesus didn't break any Mosiac Law when he said "I and the Father are One"
THe Christian view is not 3 gods, though the Mormon heresy believes that.
The Christian view is that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. ONe God 3 "persons" not persons as in people, but as in distinct yet united and equal.
How can that be? Well, as you know, God is far more than we as humans can totally understand.

One more point if you are set on numbers:

(1+ 1 +1)= 3 (your view of Christianity's view of God)
BUT
(1 x 1 x 1 )= 1 ( the actual Christian view of God)

Teresa

[Cepha]

theoriginalcall
I have a question for my catholics neighbours. Before you rush to answer this question blindly with 'Jesus is LORD! Jesus is the Saviour!' , I want you to use some common sense , and think.

;D You must have us confused with Non-Catholic Christian Fundamentalists!

According to the bible , Jesus (peace be upon him) came to uphold the Mosaic Law of the jews.

No. Jesus came to reveal & to fulfill The Law. Among the other reasons, He came to establish His Church to continue the teachings that He revealed.

In other words, while Judaism was just for The Jews, in God's great mercy, He sent Jesus for all mankind (all nations).

Not to abolish , but to fulfill the Law , meaning to STILL apply it.

The Law as "He" defined it. Remember, He taught things that contradicted The Law to our eyes, but He (being The One through which all things were made including The Law) knew The Law and how it was supposed to be applied.

Remember, God has revealed to man everything that man knows, but not everything that God knows. There is no Scriptural evidence that The Law was ever completed until Christ came. In fact, by His own statement, He literally came to fulfill The Law which means that up until that point, The Law wasn't fulfilled yet.

Now I ask you to bring me a logical explanation to this: how on earth could jesus (pbuh) proclaim himself to be God/son of God/saviour other than 1 God Who is in Heaven?

That's simple. If He is God, nothing is beyond His ability so He could proclaim anything and we must accept it even if we can't understand it.

This is the WORST breach of the Mosaic Law he came to support in the first place! Jesus (pbuh) claiming to be divine is something a false prophet would say cause it would go against the Mosaic Law and the teachings of the Prophets , but muslims do not say Jesus (pbuh) was a false prophet. We believe that jesus (pbuh) never proclaimed himself to be God , therefore he never went against the Mosaic Law in the first place.

This is why a non-Christian should never debate or question a faith that is not his own. If you knew anything about Mosaic Law, it all revolved around the coming of The Messiah and once that Messiah came, He would bring about complete revelation. That's what Jesus said.

It never ever said that God will "not" send His only begotten Son. It never ever said that God could not be 3 persons.

Of course, if it did, you could find this and prove me wrong, but since nothing that Jesus did contradicted The Law, you cannot.

The only profile that would suit Jesus (pbuh) is that he was 100% man , a righteous example for the jews , who belonged with the brotherhood of prophets who all had 1 universal and consistent message:

That profile would only fit the definition of a non-Christian. But not to a Christian. Of course, you're entitled to create whatever beliefs you want to in your own faith and I would never question or work to discredit it because that is between you and God. And besides, I don't have to work to discredit any other religion. I'm a Christian. I'm set. Why would I work to discredit any other religion?

It will benefit me not. All is as God wills it, right? So, what does that say about Christianity "being"? That God wills it. And if God didn't will it, it wouldn't be here and man could never overrule God's will.

God is 1 , worship and call on Him and NOONE else! If you see any clue of a trinity/pre-existence of jesus (pbuh) in the following verses , plz let me know:

--> (Isa 45:5-7) I am YHWH and there is NO OTHER ; besides ME there are NO GODS ; I have girded you [i.e. protected you] even though you did not know Me. (6) So that they will know from the rising of the sun to the setting that there is NONE BESIDES ME; I am YHWH and there is NO OTHER . (7) The one who forms light and creates darkness, who makes peace and creates evil, I YHWH do ALL these things." (Isa 45:5-7).

Well, what you did is what Satan tried to do to Jesus. You limited the scriptures from which Jesus could make an argument and challenged Him to prove His points with what Satan chose.

But that's like me telling you to prove what The Constitution of The United State proclaims about slavery by using only one passage. The definition will be incomplete.

Now, lift your restrictions, and I'll be droppin' bombs on you.

The thing is, you're supposed to ask a Christian to prove to you using scripture how Jesus and God and The Holy Spirit are One...not "take these ingredients to make brownies and make a cake out of them".

--> Commandment 1: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

--> Commandment 2: Do not have any other gods before ME.

Incomplete scriptures. Post them in their entirety. And...again, if Jesus and God are One, then it's not worshipping another god besides Him to worship Jesus.

Clearly , there is only 1 singular God mentioned.

Here's your challenge...show me in those scriptures that God can't/didn't/wouldn't ever be 3?

And...if all 3 are 1, then that would still be 1 God.

Again, you can't be the one to selectively choose what scriptures we use to prove our doctrine. You cannot shackle us to your standards. Anybody who would try to argue The Holy Trinity by your standards would be a fool.

So what can the truth be? Is the Lord of the throne Who created the heavens and the earth in six days , the only God and jesus (pbuh) was 100% man as islam and all prophets taught ?

You are trying to apply human reasoning to what God can and cannot do. It's impossible to for you to try to reason your way to an answer when it comes to God.

Here is the answer to your question.

God is all powerful and He could be 2, 3, 12, 173 persons if He wanted to. Again, you are limiting God and what He could do and what He revealed to human standards of understanding.

Or is jesus (pbuh) really God and Saviour even tho he would be contradicting himself BIG TIME and breaching the Mosaic Law he was s e n t to support in the first place?

Again, you have no understanding of what The Mosaic Law is and it's application.

Think about it, you yourself said He came to fulfill The Law.

If He was so much that He could fulfill The Law, then couldn't He reveal what The Law really meant?

You are being selective about what you choose to believe of what Jesus said.

If you're going to take some of Jesus' word's literally, then you have to take all of them literally.

This isn't "Cafetiria Faith".

You either believe in Jesus as He has been revealed to the world, or you don't believe in Him or in what He taught at all.

;D

Pax.

(Now, ask me to prove The Holy Trinity using The Holy Bible)

[theoriginalcall]

This is the main issue: The jews had lived with the Judaic Law ages long. If there is any nation that knows the Judaic Law , it is them. What they believed and still do , is that God is 1 absolute , and that he is not 2 , 3 , 4 or a thousand. He is 1 and this fact has been mentioned a kazzilion times in Jewish scriptures. Then you come along and say: 'Well , God is 3 yet 1.' It's like me holding up 1 apple and saying: 'I am holding up ONE apple' , and you would say: 'No , you are holding up 3 apples , you just can't understand it.'

You said: And...if all 3 are 1, then that would still be 1 God.

The father is not the son , the son is not the Father. How can they be one? When jesus (pbuh) was on earth , he prayed to the Father and communicated with him. You believe he had a divine spirit. If he did , then why the need to communicate? They should be one in understanding.

What I have shown is that according to the Mosaic Law , only the Lord of the throne is God and only HE should be worshipped , only HE should be prayed to for all reasons. Jesus (pbuh) could not have been God because He is not the God Who is in Heaven. It's as simple as that.

And no , I am not limiting God. Yes , He can do anything , but do you believe that God would come down to play a game of monopoly with you? Theoretically He can , but that would not fit his Holy and Divine characteristics. Then how can anyone say that God chose to remain 9 months in a HUMAN womb , that he came forth from between the legs of a HUMAN covered in unclean fluids , that he cried like a baby like we all did , that he had to suck on a nipple for mother milk , and that he had to defecate and have someone change his dirty pants? Don't you think that this is degrading for someone who is supposed to be the Creator of the Heavens and the earth , the Lord of mankind?

THINK!

[Cepha]

Jul 1, 2008 8:42:27 GMT -5 theoriginalcall said:

This is the main issue: The jews had lived with the Judaic Law ages long. If there is any nation that knows the Judaic Law , it is them.

I agree, but what happens when their own scriptures come true?
That they would reject The Messiah?
This is what was prophesised.
This is what happened.
Instead of accepting that this happened,
they stuck to their pride and refused to accept
that the scriptures were fulfilled in their presence.
And why? Because historically speaking,
they weren't expecting a Carpenter's son to be their leader.
They weren't expecting a man who preached peace with the enemies.
They were expecting a warrior. And their thirst for vengeance wasn't quenched so they rejected Jesus.

What they believed and still do , is that God is 1 absolute , and that he is not 2 , 3 , 4 or a thousand. He is 1 and this fact has been mentioned a kazzilion times in Jewish scriptures. Then you come along and say: Well , God is 3 yet 1. It's like me holding up 1 apple and saying: 'I am holding up ONE apple' , and you would say: 'No , you are holding up 3 apples , you just can't understand it.'

You know we can say that about Islam too?
Again, this is why it's dangerous to cast stones.
Sometimes, they ricchochet.

Now, if you want me to prove The Holy Trinity to you from scripture, just ask me and I'll do it, but only at your invitation.

We don't have to go to the Forum Board because as is evident, you know how to have a civilzed and intelligent conversation.

What I have shown is that according to the Mosaic Law , only the Lord of the throne is God and only HE should be worshipped , only HE should be prayed to for all reasons.

What you "haven't" shown is the fulfillment of The Scriptures in Jesus' birth.

What you haven't shown is that God can't be 3 persons.

What I can show is that God "is" The Father, The Son And The Holy Spirit. I would love to.

Jesus (pbuh) could not have been God because He is not the God Who is in Heaven.

Again, you limit what God can do to your abilities to understand.

It's as simple as that. And no , I am not limiting God. Yes , He can do anything , but do you believe that God would come down to play a game of monopoly of you?

Explain that 'game' theory. I don't understand what you mean by that.

Do you "not" believe that God can be 3 persons if He wants to be?

Theoretically he can , but that would not fit his holy characteristics.

Depending on how you look at it, God could be called a Murderer or a Cleanser when He wiped the earth of wicked people. Personal perceptions have no place in our assuming what would and wouldn't fit God's characteristics.

Then how can anyone say that God chose to remain 9 months in a HUMAN womb , that he came forth from between the legs of a HUMAN covered in unclean fluids , that he cried like a baby like we all did , that he had to suck on a nipple for mother milk , and that he had to defecate and have someone change his dirty pants. This is degrading beyond words.

Easy. God can do anything. Even all of those things you try to use to belittle what Jesus did. If God touched a pile of dung, that dung in my eyes would become holy.

In your eyes, what would that dung be?

And you should know better...Mary's womb was pure as were her fluids. She was preserved from all sin. I believe you say that that the stain of sin (a mark on a human's heart) doesn't appear on Mary's heart?.

Because God forms us in the womb of our mothers (as The Scriptures have said), He formed Mary in her mother's womb and formed her immaculately.

Think about it..."if" (just "if") you were going to send your kid to school and you had the choice of using a dirty old filthy school bus that was unsanitary or a spanking brand new school bus that never had any passengers in it and had all of the latest safety features, which would you pick?

Then would God do any less than you He being perfect in His love and us being faulty in ours?

[Cepha]

By the way, 1 triangle has 3 points.



How many points do you see?

How many triangles do you see?







If the triangle can do it...why can't God?




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