Traditional Christian Baptism

[Cepha]

For some reason, my posts on anothe forum kept disappearing and reappearing and disappearing so I've C&P'd them to this forum where they will remain visible.

So, His Blood Spoke My Name, here is the thread I promised you and we can continue our exchange over here until they fix the Gremlins over there.



Pax

[Cepha]

And baptizing is not sprinkling either. It was done by immersion.

Assuming that you too are a Baptist, this is where I get confused with you guys.
Some of you say that "baptisizing" in the Bible has nothing to do with water,
that when the Bible says baptizing, it is of The Holy Spirit.
They also say that "water" doesn't mean "water" that it means "spirit".
Which is fine by me because traditional Jewish writers would use the words
water & wind to symbolize spirit, but as far as I'm concerned, when speaking
of baptism, to me, water and spirit are exactly what they say.

So let's agree that we both are on the same page there, right?

The Greek word for baptize is "baptizo" and it means fully immerse.
The Greek word for sprinkle is "rhaino" and means to sprinkle.
Jesus was immersed, not sprinkled.

So, let's take a look at some verses where the word Baptism is used:

Matthew 3:13
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Now, this is the first instance in which one was baptized in The Holy Spirit, right?
When one was baptized in The Holy Spirit "afterwards", it was always "on" the head (not in immersion).
So, being that the word baptized in Koine Greek has several meanings which include "pouring" as when
the word is used for cleaning of hands in Mark 7:3, why would this baptism be any different from any of
the other Holy Spirit baptisms? Why would it have to be immersion and not possibly be any of the other
usages of the word?

Let's examine how one is baptized when it includes The Holy Spirit:
Matthew 3:16/the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus' head
Acts 2:3-4/the Holy Spirit descended upon Mary and the Apostles' heads

Here, Jesus talks about being baptism of blood.
This would certainly "not" mean being "immersed" in blood,
but sprinkled (as was the Jewish tradition when they would use a
slain lambs blood and sprinkle it on the altar, not immerse the altar in blood).

Matthew 20:22-23
Mark 10:38-39
Luke 12:50

Acts 1:4-5 When baptized in The Holy Spirit, The Apostles weren't "immersed" in it, but it was "poured"
onto them (Jesus' own words..."not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, ‘you heard from me, for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit"...Peter would then describe that incident the following way in Acts 2:17,18,33 (three times)
as it being "poured", not immersed in yet Jesus used the word "baptizo" meaning that if baptizo only has one
meaning, either Jesus or Peter are misrepresnting what it is that happened/would happen.)

Acts 2:41 Peter bapitzes 3,000. There was no water or pool of water where it is said that he did this.
Immersion would have had to have been impossible. So, how did he do it? It would have to have been
by sprinkling. Again, remembering that the Koine Greek word for Baptism has several usages
(cleaning of cups, cleaning of couches, washing of hands, etc...).

Acts 9:18; 22:16 Paul was baptized while "standing". There is no mention of any tub or pool of water.

Acts 10:47-48/Acts 16:33 Peter baptizes someone "in" a house. There were no pools of water or tubs "inside" homes back then.

Titus 3:6 Talks about baptism as a "pouring out" literally (not immersion).
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, having suggested just those few instances where baptism is said to have taken place in areas where immersion was not possible, can you cite a scripture(s) that literally states the following?

1. Baptism "must" be complete immersion in a body of water
2. Sprinkling is forbidden in baptism
3. Sprinkling was never done
4. Baptize only refers to immersion and not to pouring (keep in mind now, this is Koine, not modern Greek)
5. Are there any explicit in instuctions in The Bible on what is a valid baptism?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

One final note, in The Old Testament, the forgiveness of sins was facilitated with the "sprinkling" of the blood of a slain lamb. Jesus is the new slain lamb.

I suggest that we take each verse I listed and "in context" do an extensive study to either confirm or disprove what I have said. However, if only one of all of these verses cannot be proven wrong, then that alone does away with the "immersion only" theory.



Pax

[Cepha]

When considering who is qualified to be baptized, one must go to the Word of God for the answer. In Acts Chapter 8, when asked by the Ethiopian eunuch "...what doth hinder me from being baptized?", Philip answered, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest."

I agree with going to The Bible for the answer!

Now, let's agree that Philip never said "only, if thou believest...".
So, faith is not a prerequisite (according to The Word of God that you chose).

This is the greatest of all prerequisites to baptism... believing.

Scripture?

Does an infant believe in Jesus the Christ? What does Scripture say?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

To answer that question, you would have to also provide proof that a baby has no faith.
Personally speaking, I believe that babies automatically "know" God because they are innocents
and are closer to God than we are, the least of sinners. As they grow, their sin compounded on top
of their original sin grows them away "from" God.

Jesus was clear when He told us to not forbid the children from coming unto him and that whoever
keeps one of them from Him would be better off dead. So, what would Jesus say about infants being
brought unto Him? His touch alone was a baptism, right? When He blessed the children, do you think
that He didn't baptize them? His words alone were enough to save one (take the good theif on the cross
who was saved "without" being immersed in water).

Ok, having gotten that conjecture out of the way, let's go to the verses that support infant baptism.

But let's begin with this most important observation: Baptism replaces circumsicion. Col 2:11-12
Now that that's established and is undeniable, remember that it was infants who were circumsized
and converts were circumcized as adults.

In Acts 2:39, Peter literally says that the promise of baptism is to adults and to children & infants (teknon)

Same deal in Luke 1:59 where the word "teknon" (meaning both children & infants in Greek) is used again
to tell of an infant's circumsicion.

Acts 10:47-48 Here, Peter baptizes an entire household. The word "household" in Greek literally included everyone
from an infant to the oldest member of the household.

Acts 16:15 Same as above, but this time, it was Paul who baptized an entire household. This was done based on Lydia's faith (not on the entire household's faith)

Besides, parents have all authority over children and can impose the religion unto their children and as Christians, it is their duty to impose Christianity unto their children. They can later recant at the age of reason (depending on the maturity of the child, that age varies), but until then, they are graced with all of the benefits and graces of their baptism to help them make the right decision. The only thing that is imposed on them is God's graces, not a force of
faith. This helps protect the chidren from being misled and greatens their chances of choosing Jesus.

Who in their right mind would not use a child seat when they have one? So why would it be any less important as a
parent to protect their child's soul and/or spiritual being?

Here is a prime example of another's faith's graces being given to their loved ones:

1 Corinthians 7:14
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife,
and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:
else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."

Nay, infants cannot be baptized,

Scripture that states that infants "cannot" be baptized?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, can you provide scriptures that forbid infants from being brought into the fold and body of Christ?

Is there any scripture that literally states that children are "not" to be baptized?

Is there any scripture that states at what age a person can be baptized?



Pax

[knuckle]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.


Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

repent,believe, attend,receive--- where does it say that these don't come first?

much love-----------knuckle

[teresahrc]

There's a dude on another web site who insists that we MUST baptize in the name of Jesus only! O the trappings of Sola Sola Sola Sola Sola!

[Cepha]

Sept 15, 2008 12:30:01 GMT -5 @teresahrc said:

There's a dude on another web site who insists that we MUST baptize in the name of Jesus only! O the trappings of Sola Sola Sola Sola Sola!

I've heard that.

I've heard some talk only about Jesus completely ignoring God most of the time.

Jesus is a "vessel" to God...not "God Alone".

The Goal isn't Christ alone (sola christi), but The Entirety of God.