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Post by Cepha on Aug 10, 2008 13:19:40 GMT -5
Does Baptism Replace Circumcision?
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Post by knuckle on Aug 10, 2008 13:59:24 GMT -5
no
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Post by Cepha on Aug 10, 2008 14:03:09 GMT -5
Baptism is the Christian equivalent of circumcision, or "the circumcision of Christ": "In him you were also circumcised with . . . the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (Col. 2:11–12). Thus, like circumcision, baptism can be given to children as well as adults. The difference is that circumcision was powerless to save (Gal. 5:6, 6:15), but " aptism . . . now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21).
www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp
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Post by knuckle on Aug 10, 2008 14:31:59 GMT -5
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 10, 2008 15:00:40 GMT -5
ok, i think that you must be baptised to be saved.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 10, 2008 15:22:26 GMT -5
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Why'd you have to go and pick my favorite chapter to prove that justification to God (salvation) does not require faith! Let's take the entire Chapter and break it down!  ;D |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 10, 2008 15:47:40 GMT -5
Not disputing the requirement of faith just pointing out that OUR circumcision takes place in the heart not a tub of water  much love-------------knuckle |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 10, 2008 15:50:39 GMT -5
Romans 2(Context of verse 29) 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written. How persons claiming to come in The Name of God, yet not act as God's will dictates (in gentleness, in kindness, in humility, etc...) do a diservice to their own cause and dishonor His name among non-Believers (which at that time were the Gentiles). 25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision. The bringing of one into a covenant "with" God (like Baptism for us New Covenant Christias) does not automatically profit one (salvation) if they violate the very same things that Christ teaches. Circumcision doesn't guarantee one salvation and neither does Baptism. The Bible has examples of Baptized Believers being condemned to Hell by Christ Himself. Baptism (like circumcision before it) only brings one into a covenant with God. It doesn't guarantee salvation. Else, all those Christian Pedophiles and Rapists and Murderers would be going to Heaven "unconditionally" just because they believed and confess Jesus. 26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision? Ahh! Who are the "uncircumcized"? The Gentiles! Literally, "non-Believers!" 27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law? Here, it states that Gentiles (who at the writing of this were non-Believers) would be in a place of judgement over Believers (Jews). How could the unrighteous judge if they were unrighteous? This means that they had to be righteous when this judgement comes. In other words, "in" Heaven. Why? Not because they followed some words in a book, but because just like another non-Believer and rejector of Christ, they "lived" The Word of God that is written on everyman's heart (The Law). The Law was revealed to The Jews, but all men have it written in their hearts. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: What makes one a true follower of God isn't ritual or professions or creeds or statements or proclaimations... 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. He who "lives" The Word of God is who will be saved. Not just those who proclaim it (like this chapter easily depicts). It aint' what one says, it's how one lives. Otherwise, people like Benny Hinn is guaranteed Salvation. What a thought!  So, what replaces circumcision for the non-Jew when in the OT, one was circumcised as adults in order for them to convert to Judaism that weren't born "into" and Isrealite tribe? Today, it's Baptism. Just like The Apostles taught.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 10, 2008 15:54:27 GMT -5
Not disputing the requirement of faith just pointing out that OUR circumcision takes place in the heart not a tub of water much love-------------knuckle All it is is just a ritual to bring one into covenant with God (the way Baptism is). But it is not a bargaining chip for Jesus gift of salvation for all mankind. We are delivered from original sin whether we believe in Him or not. The value of His sacrifice wasn't conditioned on our faith in Him. It was made. It was perfect. It requires nothing more. It was accomplished. But, it wasn't our guarantee to Heaven. It was only the gate being unlocked for us. After that, we have to literally "earn" our way into Heaven. Otherwise, there's be no need for judgement. People would just die and present their "Jesus Died For Me" card at the Gate an waltz right in no questions asked. |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 10, 2008 16:12:53 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------
There are maybe a thousand Christians churches teaching nearly the same things, however, different enough to call themselves by another name. I believe, however, that they all will take 10% of your salary and call it God's Tithe, regardless of what church YOU belong to.
There are lots of theories as to how one gets saved--what is required and what is not, what has been done away with and what has not. Usually people end up just picking a few things that they personally believe are important and try to stick to those. Maybe the one single most important physical ritual in all the Old Testament was "circumcision." The most demeaning thing that one could be called was an "Uncircumcised Gentile." Wow, how horrible.
Circumcision is the cutting of the foreskin of a boy when he is eight days old. It came to represent the purifying of the human heart. As though eight day olds could have their hearts purified. Flesh became synonymous with a carnal mind, and mind and attitude against God's will and commandments. It was just a physical ritual of cutting off a few centimeters of skin, but it was to picture THE ACTUAL CONVERSION OF THE HUMAN HEART AND TOTAL DEDICATIONS TO GOD. And mind you, the unfortunate female could not partake of this most revered ritual at all!
Well, don't you know, all Jewish babies were circumcised, as are the vast majority of babies to this day, but there was a problem. They were all physically circumcised, but almost no one was circumcised spiritually in their heart, AND THAT IS WHAT IT REPRESENTED!
It was all the circumcised Jews in Jerusalem that crucified their own Messiah. The circumcised scribes and Pharisees were among the most hypocritical pack of lying, lusting, thieves on earth. Saul of Tarsus was circumcised the eight day as commanded--he also slaughtered many in Christ's Church and became the WORST SINNER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.
I could go on and on. By the way, that pack of cut throat murders that chanted "CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM"--They were the ones that BELIEVED ON JESUS, WERE BAPTIZED BY JOHN, AND KEPT THE SABBATH DAY COMMAND EVERY WEEK!!!
Yet, every where I go there are folks preaching that we MUST "keep the Sabbath," we MUST "pay our tithes," we MUST observe the "Lord's supper," we MUST be "baptized in water," "we MUST "keep the ten commandments," etc., or we CAN'T BE SAVED!!!
Satan and his ministers APPEAR as angels of light! But Jesus said, "Satan DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD!" Do you think that just maybe professing Christians are part of "THE WHOLE WORLD?"
Do physical rituals, SPIRITUALLY SAVE A PERSON?
Most of Christendom and their highly schooled clergymen, have not a clue that we are under A NEW COVENANT, and that it is NOT PATTERNED AFTER THE OLD COVENANT! God said:
"I will make a NEW covenant with the [spiritual] house of Israel and with the House of Judah. NOT ACCORDING... [that's 'NOT according...'] ...NOT ACCORDING to the [old] covenant that I made with their fathers..." (Heb. 8:8-9).
Yet all of Christendom virtually teaches that the New Covenant is IN ACCORD WITH THE OLD covenant. That really, the New Testament to them is "Keeping the Old covenant BETTER than they used to keep the OLD COVENANT!!! Uncircumcised, unscriptural, HOG-WASH!!
Jesus said:
"Think NOT that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, BUT TO FULFILL"
Now follow this closely:
Did not Jesus say He came to "FULFILL" the prophets?
Did He in reality and actually, "fulfill" all the prophecies concerning Himself and His ministry?
YES HE DID!
Are those very SAME prophecies, therefore, still to be continuously fulfilled, over and over and over down through the centuries?
NO, JESUS HAS ALREADY FULFILLED THEM--ONCE FOR ALL!
Did Jesus also "FULFILL" the law? YES HE DID.
Are we then to continuously fulfill the law, over and over and over down through the centuries?
Contrary to all Christendom bot Catholic ad Protestant, NO WE ARE NOT!
WE ARE NOT, I REPEAT 'NOT' UNDER THE SAME OLD COVENANT LAWS TODAY!!! Jesus Christ and the Apostles SAID SO.
"In that He [Jesus] said, A NEW COVENANT, he has made the first OLD. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to VANISH AWAY" (Heb. 8:13).
Will we believe these words or not?
Here is the real answer:
"For the LOVE of Christ constrains us because we thus judge, that if One died for all, then were ALL DEAD: And that He died for all, that they which live should NOT henceforth live unto themselves, but unto HIM which died for them, and rose again. Where henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE. THEREFORE if any man be IN CHRIST, he is A NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; BEHOLD, all things are become new"!!! (II Cor. 5:14-17).
If you are IN CHRIST, then CHRIST IS IN YOU, and Christ will live a NEW LIFE IN YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, and not through the carnal minded flesh of man.
THERE IS NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, THAT ONE CAN DO 'PHYSICALLY' TO GET SAVED 'SPIRITUALLY'!!
But what about all these 'physical things' of circumcision and baptism? Do we not have to be circumcised and baptized? YES WE DO! ABSOLUTELY. And here is how it is to be done:
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [theological doctrines] and vain DECEIT, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, and not AFTER CHRIST. For IN HIM dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the Head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how so?] with the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS [or knives], in putting off the BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: [notice, no period...] Buried WITH HIM [in 'WATER baptism?' No...] in baptism [how so? same way! 'WITHOUT HANDS; WITHOUT WATER, 'in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the BAPTISM OF CHRIST--there is but 'ONE BAPTISM,' Eph. 4:5!], wherein also you are risen WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the UNcircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together WITH HIM, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES
... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body [the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY OF THE SHADOW, the BODY OF CHRIST WHICH WAS CASTING THE SHADOW] is of [or belongs to] CHRIST" (Col. 2:8-13 & 16-17)!!!
At the conference at Jerusalem spoken of in the 15th chapter of Acts, Christian Pharisees were demanding that newly converted Gentiles must BE CIRCUMCISED AND KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES. Did the Apostles, elders, disciples, and the whole church under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit conclude that they should:
A. Be circumcised, but NOT to keep the law of Moses?
B. Keep the law of Moses, but NOT to be circumcised?
C. Be circumcised, AND keep the law of Moses?
D. NONE OF THE ABOVE?
It is, of course, NONE OF THE ABOVE. They ALL concluded in complete harmony with each other and the Spirit of God, that new Christian converts were not to be circumcised OR keep the law of Moses. Now everyone knows (don't they?) that the ritual of circumcision was the most important physical ritual in all the Old Covenant, and that that the Old Covenant itself WAS the 'Ten Commandments.'
"And He [GOD] declared unto you His [Old now] Covenant, which He commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deut. 4:13).
The TEN COMMANDMENTS were, in effect, THE OLD COVENANT! Read all of Acts 15 and see for yourself that the OLD covenant ten commandments and circumcision were NOT enforced upon NEW CHRISTIAN CONVERTS UNDER THE NEW COVENANT!
When we have JESUS CHRIST LIVING IN OUR VERY HEARTS AND MINDS AND SPIRITS, we don't need laws chiseled into hearts of STONY TABLETS! We must live a spiritual life FAR FAR ABOVE that of the legalistic Pharisaical hypocrites that thought that obeying physical laws makes a man SPIRITUAL.
One could KILL HIS ENEMIES under the Old Covenant. Well he can't anymore. Now a Christian MUST LOVE ALL OF HIS ENEMIES! One was to performed his oaths unto the Lord in the Old Covenant, but now a Christian is "NOT TO SWEAR AT ALL." You see NOT SWEARING is NOT the spiritual application of SWEARING. They are DIFFERENT. And the New is BETTER! One was not to commit the actual act of physical intercourse with another man's wife, under the Old Covenant. But now ... NOW, we dare not even "LOOK upon a woman to lust after her"!!!
Are you getting the picture? Are you beginning to hear with your spiritual ears and perceive with you spiritual eyes and understand in your SPIRITUAL HEART? GOOD! I LOVE YOU GUYS AND GOD WILL BLESS YOU!
God will give His Holy Spirit to those whom He has called and chosen. There are no physical formulas now that we know Christ no more after the flesh, we are COMPLETE IN HIM, which certainly includes His Holy Spirit.
much love to you Cepha-----------------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 10, 2008 17:23:31 GMT -5
Hi Cepha------------- Catholic Churches require nothing.  Teresa posted some of the ways that The Bible states one must do to get saved. I personally believe in "complete" Christianity. In other words, talking all the ways the Bible says one must do to get saved. Otherwise, anything less than that is just one attending a Buffet of Faith. The Bible says that one must: 1. Believe That Jesus Saves
2. Be Baptized in Water
3. Be Baptized in Spirit
4. Eat Jesus' Flesh
5. Drink Jesus' Blood
6. Love God
7. Do Charitable Works
8. Be Merciful
9. Verbalize Their Faith
10. Repent of Sins
11. Never Sin
12. Believe that Jesus is The Son of God
13. Believe that Jesus is The Messiah(and that's just off the top of my head...I can't believe that's all of them). It doesn't say that any of these is prioritized over any of the others. But it definitely says that all of these things must be done. And yet, Jesus Christ assured a Thief on a cross Heaven that hadn't been baptized with Water and that never professed Jesus Christ as his Savior literally, he never ate Jesus' Flesh and never drunk Jesus' Blood. Yet, Jesus guaranteed him Salvation. And why? Not because he met all of the qualifications listed, but because he simply asked Jesus to "remember" Him (he never repented for his sins, he only acknowledged them). Did he believe Jesus was The Messiah? If we went strictly by what is actually written in The Bible we'd have to say "no". He did not recognnize Jesus Christ as The Messiah among a list of other things that the Bible listed must be done in order to be saved. Here's what actual Jews say about it: WHY A BRIT MILAH? Brit Milah literally means "covenant of circumcision." Abraham, Judaism's founding father, was the first person in history to have a Brit Milah. In fact, he circumcised himself.
Abraham vowed that he would teach his descendents to serve God with perfect devotion. In return, God promised to guarantee the survival of Abraham's progeny -- the family of Hebrews that became the nation of Israel that have since been known as the Jews.
As long as there would be human beings in the world, God assured Abraham, there would always be Jews. This covenant or pact between God and Abraham was sealed through the act of circumcision.
Today, by performing the act circumcision, Jews perpetuate the covenant and make their children a part of that eternal promise.www.aish.com/literacy/lifecycle/What_is_Circumcision$.aspAccording to Jews, you are wrong. It represents a covenant with God. Kind of like my requirements list above huh? If Jesus said Satan deceives the whole world, then we are all deceived. Even those who believe "in" Jesus (because their part of the whole world). That is, "if" Jesus said that. According to Jesus, yes. Baptism, Communion, these things MUST be done in order for one's spirit to be saved. Jesus said you must be born again of water and of spirit. But that contradicts what Jesus taught that you have to be baptized with water or else you will not go to Heaven. But that contradicts what Jesus taught that we are to adhere to what The Pharisees taught. I'm actually hearing a lot of things that completely cotradict what Jesus actually said.  Pax |
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Post by yarddog on Aug 10, 2008 19:06:09 GMT -5
Just one thought on this. Circumcision was a sign for the Israelites, not the Gentiles. The Jewish christians still had to follow the Mosaic Law after Jesus' death.
We see in Acts 15 that Paul was teaching the Gentiles that they didn't need circumcision, and the Apostles at Jerusalem confirmed that.
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Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved."
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Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.
James rules:
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It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,
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but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood.
Circumcision did not end for the Jewish christians though as we see in Acts 16.
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He reached (also) Derbe and Lystra where there was a disciple named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek.
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The brothers in Lystra and Iconium spoke highly of him,
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and Paul wanted him to come along with him. On account of the Jews of that region, Paul had him circumcised, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God's commandments.
I don't think that we can say that about baptism.
Circumcision was for those of the Mosaic Law, not the Gentiles.
God Bless,
Yarddog
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 15, 2008 11:30:56 GMT -5
replace in a spiritual sense.
But Christians can still be circumcised if they aren't doing it just to "keep the law"
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Post by Jimmy B. on Dec 10, 2008 3:13:38 GMT -5
Yes, of course is does, any Catholic that reads the Bible know's that.
This one was too easy....next!
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Post by knuckle on Dec 15, 2008 6:43:30 GMT -5
NOTHING you do outwardly will either defile you or make you clean or spiritual inwardly:
Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
What this verse is saying is that "nothing without a man" can either defile or cleanse a man. All of these changes are inward. They are completely independent of any ritual you may perform. Do you want to know what the 'water' which truly baptizes you really is? Here is how you are baptized with 'water:'
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
It is "the Word." It is Christ. Our true baptism is "in spirit." And what is spirit?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Christ's Words are water and fire and spirit and Truth and life and death. It is through Christ's Words that we get to know both Him and His Father:
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son , but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Christ's Word, His doctrines, are the water which baptizes and cleanses us. Christ's Words are the fire which is "already kindled" in those who are "now being judged." It is this fiery Word which burns out the desires of the flesh in us until we are "dead to the flesh," so that we are "crucified with Christ." And it is through this same word that we are resurrected and given the life because we were willing, through Christ in us, to "lose our soul."
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire ["by the [fiery] word"-Eph.5:26]:
Luke 12:49 I am come to send [baptism with] fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled ["begin at the house of God"]?
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
As for when we are saved, we need to let Christ tell us when that is accomplished.This takes place in the heart,which only God can see. Ephesians 2:8 is a statement of what the process is. It is already true that "by grace are ye saved through faith." But that is not in contradiction to any other statement in God's Word. It certainly does not contradict this verse of scripture:
Matthew 22:14 For many are called ["and with joy receive the Word"], but few are chosen.
And neither does it disagree with this verse of God's Word:
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
If we are in Christ, we "die daily." In the mean time it blesses us all to remember this verse and to be vigilant and patient.
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Believing means to be living. The ten-second sinner's prayer is a lie of the Devil. Those who are truly "in Christ" will produce the "fruit of the spirit." Look at this verse:
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
So, here is how we "believe unto salvation:"
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing ["enduring to the end"] seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Salvation is" by grace through faith... Created unto good works." (Ephesians 2:8-10).
I believe that one of our first discussions on this board was "what is grace?' We could return to that discussion if needs be....
I point this out because today's church doctrine must be aligned with the doctrine of Christ. I pray that God will grant that you can say with Peter "We ought to obey God rather than man."
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Please don't let the devil try and tell you that knuckle is disrespecting the Catholic church---that is not my intent,I believe that the CC is very sincere in that they believe you must receive the physical baptism in a tub of water and they are trying hard to save souls---they are just confused as to which baptism is needed.
much love---------------knuckle
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Post by watchman on Jan 1, 2009 1:18:39 GMT -5
hello?
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Post by Cepha on Jan 2, 2009 9:59:24 GMT -5
In the immortal words of Uncle Leo..."Hello!" LOL |
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