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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 17:50:22 GMT -5
Revelation Scriptural Study. All are welcome to monitor and to contribute. This isn't for debating (if anybody wants to debate anything here, take it to the debate forum), but for an exchange, for learning and for studying this text. I will be using BibleGateway.com 's version of The American Standard Version of The Holy Bible: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201&version=8Good reading all...
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 18:01:17 GMT -5
Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
9 I John, your brother and partaker with you in tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet
11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle.
14 And his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 and his feet like unto burnished brass, as if it had been refined in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last,
18 and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.
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Post by knuckle on Aug 11, 2008 18:29:30 GMT -5
Hi Cepha-------------------
I wanted to point out that though written by John that it is THE revelation OF Jesus Christ and is much much more than a record of what John saw or a prophecy of future events.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
the TIME IS AT HAND for whom?answer----the one reading this right now
Jesus said I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. This revelation IS,WAS and IS TO COME
it is sent to the seven churches,seven being the number of physical completion in other words the whole church as it exists on earth through out history.You will note John calls himself Our Bother in TRIBULATION and the voice comes from behind him that is before he wrote this the revelation "WAS" and as we read this it "IS' and because we read it,it "IS TO COME"
much love-----------------knuckle
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Post by knuckle on Aug 11, 2008 18:43:33 GMT -5
Rev 2:1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, he that walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks:
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false;
Rev 2:3 and thou hast patience and didst bear for my name's sake, and hast not grown weary.
Rev 2:4 But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
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Post by knuckle on Aug 11, 2008 18:46:52 GMT -5
Now here is a question for my Catholic family----who or what is a Nicolaitane
much love-----------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 19:31:58 GMT -5
Now here is a question for my Catholic family----who or what is a Nicolaitane much love-----------------knuckle I don't know but Wiki calls them Heretics. |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 11, 2008 19:36:07 GMT -5
oh yes they were and still are
here is a hint-----Babylon or the tower of babel to be more precise
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 19:37:14 GMT -5
What say we do it like this...we take a verse and post it. Then so that we are both on the same page at the same time, we discuss that one verse. And, we go verse by verse backtracking if neccesary to learn more about any current verse in study. I suggest we take it not by verse numbers, but by completed sentences. Like this: Revelation 1:1-2The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. How do you feel about this manner of doing things? We can each comment on what we believe it means and then discuss it, come to an understanding of our individual interpretations and then we can go to the next verse building upon the foundation of the previous verse. We can begin with that very first sentence there. Agreeable?  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 19:38:28 GMT -5
oh yes they were and still are here is a hint-----Babylon or the tower of babel to be more precise I guess you can call that "Heretical Succession!" LOL! Ok, but let's leave that for another thread and focus on our sentence by sentence analyzation of the text, cool? |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 19:40:34 GMT -5
Oh yeah, and if we're using different versions of the Bible (i.e. AS vs KJV vs NIV, etc...), and there is a difference in the text, we can definately see why there are differences there. I thnk that this would be an eye opening opportunity to learn more. |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 11, 2008 19:47:01 GMT -5
cool. And thanks for starting this thread,I had one very similar when Marcie and you guys started on "that other board" but some one mentioned Mary and it got zapped--oh well... as for the first verses I kind of gave my take on them already so now it is your turn---bedazzle me with that Catholic insight much love--------------knuckle |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 19:53:25 GMT -5
Revelation 1:1-2
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
Here, John says that this revelation was given to him and apparently to others (or to others "through" John's writings) especially Church Leaders (Jesus' servants).
He says that some of these things must "shortly" come to pass meaning within his lifetime. Otherwise, "shortly" would have no relevance to him, but everything would be things to come (after him).
This was told to him by an Angel. Muslims believe that when an Angel of God's visits one, this makes them a prophet because they are receiving direct Revelation from God (this is why they see Mary as a Prophetess). I'm only mentioning this because I wonder what if this is the same within Christianity.
Finally, John says that he testifies to Christ as a witness (The Word of God) and to Christ's own testimony (The Gospel) and of John's own as well.
How do you see it?
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Post by knuckle on Aug 11, 2008 20:11:05 GMT -5
I see the servant as the born again believer and shortly come to pass is for that believer be it present day or 2000 years ago
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 20:32:15 GMT -5
I see the servant as the born again believer and shortly come to pass is for that believer be it present day or 2000 years ago When I read the word "servant" spoken by the Apostle John, I immediately thought of Paul when he calls himself a servant. Also of Christ when He says that He didn't come to be served, but to serve. Wouldn't the Apostles be the servants if they are reflecting Christ's work and serving the flock? I just read where those who actually work along "with" Christ are not servants, but friends (if they know what He knows). Do Disciples serve The Church? Or does The Church serve Disciples? (The Church being those chosen to spiritually guide the flock) Is there any scriptural reference where Disciples are called servants or referred to as servants that weren't Apostles? According to Rev 1, it literally calls John " His servant". Yet in John 15:15, Jesus said: "No longer do I call you servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends;
for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you." (Wow! I never caught that before...The Apostles knew just as much as Jesus knew at this point!) So, is John now back to "servant" status because he's at a place where he doesn't know everything again now that Jesus is gone and he's revealing new teachings and revelations? serv·ant
–noun 1. a person employed by another, esp. to perform domestic duties.
2. a person in the service of another.
3. a person employed by the government: a public servant. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 11, 2008 20:37:12 GMT -5
Im watching, and if i can chime in i will, these scripts go over my head alot! lol
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 20:37:34 GMT -5
cool. And thanks for starting this thread,I had one very similar when Marcie and you guys started on "that other board" but some one mentioned Mary and it got zapped--oh well... as for the first verses I kind of gave my take on them already so now it is your turn---bedazzle me with that Catholic insight much love--------------knuckle That happened to my Revelation 12 Thread over there! From what I understand, their "borrowing" threads from here and railing on them without any rebuttal over there.  I wonder what would've happened if I would've posted Luke 1! They would've sent their own Silas after me (won't be the first time I've had former opponents that I vanquished send forum hatchet men after me! ;D ) .  But! I digress!  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 11, 2008 20:40:13 GMT -5
Im watching, and if i can chime in i will, these scripts go over my head alot! lol That's the point CC! We're going at Kindergarten speed so we can all (at least me) have some kind of grasp on what's being said (at the very least, a "beginning" of understanding). |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 12, 2008 5:18:09 GMT -5
morning Cepha---------------
In your thread on Peter I had stated that ole Pete was my favorite of the 12.As we read revelation and the spiritual aspect of it one sees everything that Peter went though to become "the rock" Paul speaks of knowing Christ after the flesh no more and leaving the "milk of babes" going on to strong meat ----- all of this must shortly come to pass in our lives to be a son not a babe to be the rock to be friends of Christ to be evey thing that the bible says we must become.
It takes us from where we all start to where we must go.....
much love-----------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2008 7:54:47 GMT -5
morning Cepha--------------- In your thread on Peter I had stated that ole Pete was my favorite of the 12.As we read revelation and the spiritual aspect of it one sees everything that Peter went though to become "the rock" Paul speaks of knowing Christ after the flesh no more and leaving the "milk of babes" going on to strong meat ----- all of this must shortly come to pass in our lives to be a son not a babe to be the rock to be friends of Christ to be evey thing that the bible says we must become. It takes us from where we all start to where we must go..... much love-----------------knuckle I see it as written..."a" revelation that God gave to Jesus who in turn gave it to The Apostles with events that were going to happen in close proximity to his writing this. I believe that this is confirmed with his expressively naming himself (an Apostle) "as" a servant with no other scriptural references to anybody but Apostles and Jesus being servants (at least in relation to Christianity). I don't see how this refers to Peter or to personal spiritual growth. I see it as John announcing himself as an emmisary of God and pre-qualifying himself by stating under who's authority he speaks. John even goes on to specify this by literally referring to his "Priesthood" in later verses and the overwhelming majority of Rev 1 is about him and what he experiences. I don't think that this revelation was made to anybody else, but John (who in turn, revealed it to the others through these writings while he was incarcerated). A) John doesn't mention anybody else in this sentence B) John literally refers to himself as a "servant" Look at that? All this "opinion" from just the first sentence! How cool is that? Are we ready for the next sentence? |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 12, 2008 9:23:21 GMT -5
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
from here it is apparent that this is addressed to those who readeth and who hear and it is important to keep what is written for the time is now.
being as we are reading this now then the time is at hand now (Is,Was and Is to Come)
This again is the revelation OF Jesus Christ to the whole church(past,present and future)
When we look at messianic prophesy there are two applications the current physical application and the spiritual application in Jesus.If need be I can go into detail but the point is that there is much more going on here than just a single message in a single moment of time.
we will cover this as we go along but for now----your take
much love-------------knuckle
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