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Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2008 12:50:38 GMT -5
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. from here it is apparent that this is addressed to those who readeth and who hear and it is important to keep what is written for the time is now. Being that the "he" being spoken of is John, to me it is apparent that this verse is talking about John. Or in other words, John is blessed because being as we are reading this now then the time is at hand now (Is,Was and Is to Come) This again is the revelation OF Jesus Christ to the whole church(past,present and future) When we look at messianic prophesy there are two applications the current physical application and the spiritual application in Jesus.If need be I can go into detail but the point is that there is much more going on here than just a single message in a single moment of time. we will cover this as we go along but for now----your take much love-------------knuckle Couldn't have put it better myself! ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2008 13:09:09 GMT -5
Revelation 1
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
4 sounds like Jesus' words "to" John. He addresses 7 Churches that are in Asia. As opposed to churches "outside" of Asia? Is this some type of authentication that only the 7 (number of God) Churches that are in Asia are the only true Churches while the others are not valid churches worthy of this all important revelation being given to.
The 7 Spirits? Prophesy:
Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
5 is pretty clear and simple except for one thing...the firstborn of the dead? I take this as His being the first Man to be Born Again (since He is literally Man and is literally born again). He is the first of "us" (humanity) to be free of sin while we are "freed" of sin.
6 John (because this is being written to literally The Heirchy of The 7 Churches) is recognizing the common union of these religious orders that while being sepearted geographically, are all "one" under the same doctrine and teachings (this work, Revelation, literally a unifying document). Here, John refers to himself and The Church Leaders in their proper titles...Priests. Finally, praise for God and His Son.
Tag...
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 12, 2008 15:13:41 GMT -5
what were the 7 churches?
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Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2008 15:26:51 GMT -5
what were the 7 churches? Literally "7" Churches throughout Asia. They are listed here:
Rev 110 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet
11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. The Church Fathers wrote to them: Ignatius of Antioch Epistle to the Smyrnaeans Saint Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna (c 69- ca. 155) So we can see that those who wrote "to" and were "from" these Churches were "Catholics". (Polycarp was literally Saint John's Disciple...the very same Saint John that wrote The Book of Revelation and he was a Catholic.) Saint Ignatius (Saint Polycarp's student...only 1 degree seperated from an actual Apostle, Saint John The Evangelist) was the first to actually use the title "The Catholic Church" in his writings. Gosh I love being Catholic! I get giddy when I think about it! To see actual Apostolic Church Fathers' students mentioning "our" name in their writings 2,000 years ago! It just fills my heart up with humility and with fear for those times that I don't live up to Jesus' Church's teachings. But wow! To be Catholic! To be a "universal" Christian! How cool is that! God bless all Christians, God bless all of our enemies and God bless the universal Christian Church! I just still get amazed at how "true" of a Church we really are and at how undeniable The Catholic Church "is" The Church of Christ! But...back to the thread. ;D Food for thought CC... |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 12, 2008 15:55:56 GMT -5
And CC, here's a documentary on the 7 Churches from a non-religious source.
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Post by knuckle on Aug 12, 2008 20:46:03 GMT -5
Hi Cepha---------------
You know that when the word Asia is used it is talking about falling away.....
So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. (Act 19:27)
And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. (Act 21:27-28)
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. (2Ti 1:15)"
'John to the seven churches which are in Asia,' is preparing us to deal with all that is within us that is turned away from Christ. The seven churches of Asia, are "that great city wherein our Lord was crucified." The seven churches of Asia are nothing less than "Babylon the great the mother of harlot and of abominations of the earth." It is what is in these seven churches that we must yet 'come out of.'
And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. (Act 21:27-28)
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. (2Ti 1:15)"
'John to the seven churches which are in Asia,' is preparing us to deal with all that is within us that is turned away from Christ. The seven churches of Asia, are "that great city wherein our Lord was crucified." The seven churches of Asia are nothing less than "Babylon the great the mother of harlot and of abominations of the earth." It is what is in these seven churches that we must yet 'come out of.'
Christ is going to show us our short comings in these "letters to the churches" and He is not speaking to the Baptists or the Lutherans or the Catholics oh no,this is personal---He is speaking to the knuckles and the cephas and the marcies Christ is calling us out.
much love-------------knuckle
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 13, 2008 0:12:48 GMT -5
yall lost me again. lol and dont even try to explain knucks...  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 9:56:10 GMT -5
I'm with CC on this. I personally see Asia as exactly what Scripture says it is...7 physical Churches literally geographically located "in" Asia (as they are revealed to be later on in Rev 1). I can't see any Scriptures that suggest that Asia is anything other than Asia.  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 10:05:23 GMT -5
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
Jesus coming with the clouds...clouds is (to me) obviously a reference to Heaven. They that pierced him would have to mean either Romans or Jews or both. Tribes of earth? Everybody else? Or possibly everybody else including Jews and Romans.
Tag.
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Post by knuckle on Aug 13, 2008 14:08:08 GMT -5
now thats interesting
cepha is this verse talking about the ones who literally crucified Him or all of wicked man kind who crucified Him or the church who crucified Him?Is every eye a literal statement?
hmm Corinthians says that we shall ALL be changed in a moment.The dead shall rise.
maybe it is talking about the whole human race..........
tag
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 14:11:24 GMT -5
Hey Knucks,
You notice how those who crucified him are separated from other groups listed;
"and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him;"?
"And they that pierced him" is separated from the group known as "every eye".
Since there is a comma after those that pierced him, the 2nd group is not included as part of the first group.
It would've been difference if it read: "Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen."
Didn't notice this before, but John says: "Even so, Amen."
Amen means "so be it".
This sounds almost disagreeable to John what was said before he said that. Disagreeable or maybe not fully comprehensible.
What do you think? It's kind of hard for me to grasp why he says "Even so, Amen."
Maybe it's his personal feelings on people mourning Christ "after" the point? Maybe their being forgiven "anyway" (those that crucified Jesus)?
Jesus did after all ask God to forgive them on The Cross.
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 14:18:27 GMT -5
Is this like a statement unifyig those who didn't believe in Him (Jesus) and those that always have? That Jesus' forgiveness was for all of them?
Tag
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 14:24:43 GMT -5
now thats interesting cepha is this verse talking about the ones who literally crucified Him or all of wicked man kind who crucified Him or the church who crucified Him?Is every eye a literal statement? hmm Corinthians says that we shall ALL be changed in a moment.The dead shall rise. maybe it is talking about the whole human race.......... tag Well, the reason that men are in sin (to answer the question...sorry.  ) is because of Adam. Jesus died for original sin (not for everlasting sin). Before we can even begin to ask for mercy, we had to be reconciled to God through a sacrifice (which was Jesus). Had Jesus died for all sin forever, that'd be an OSAS situation for Believers and a Get Out of Hell Free card for non-Believers. Jesus didn't die so we could get away with our individual sin which is our own responsibility, but for the curse of Adam to be lifted off of us. If He did, there's be no need for Him after that. |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 14:25:03 GMT -5
ooops...tag. |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 13, 2008 14:32:10 GMT -5
As we go further there will be specific promises made to the "over comer"so I see two groups just as you mentioned there are also two resurrections but I don't see the second as being physical because every one gets raised at once.
in the millennium some will rule over others....
tag
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Post by knuckle on Aug 13, 2008 14:35:10 GMT -5
off to the hospital to see Wifey
why don't you go ahead with the next verse and you can tag me back in when I get back
much love--------------knuckle
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 14:38:44 GMT -5
off to the hospital to see Wifey why don't you go ahead with the next verse and you can tag me back in when I get back much love--------------knuckle Will do. Pax |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 13, 2008 20:25:35 GMT -5
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. if you took the time to read the post I made on heaven this is a rephrasing of the concept of the vastness of God and creation IN Jesus----if you haven't read it yet,shame on you  tag |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 13, 2008 20:54:59 GMT -5
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. tag Jesus proving The Trinity in that God too calls himself The Alpha & The Omega when He says He's The Beginning & The End. +, prophecy...(Who is "to come"). _________________________________________________________________________ Revelation 1:9
I John, your brother and partaker with you in tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. This is interesting. Supposedly, John was "at" Patmos when he wrote this and while incarcerated by Nero for preaching The Gospel. Now he says tha "was in the isle of Patmos" which seems to say that he wasn't there as he wrote this. Now, his talking about partaking in tribulation in the "present" tense is a clear indication that he considered the current persecution he and those he was addressing were going through. He also allies himself with them in their sharing of their place in God's family & in the virtues they were practicing and suffering for (patience). Tag |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Aug 14, 2008 0:27:40 GMT -5
I just want to say that this is the best thread opened so far! |
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) is because of Adam. Jesus died for original sin (not for everlasting sin). Before we can even begin to ask for mercy, we had to be reconciled to God through a sacrifice (which was Jesus). Had Jesus died for all sin forever, that'd be an OSAS situation for Believers and a Get Out of Hell Free card for non-Believers. 