Worship and Liturgy: Holy Water

[I.M.Apologetics]

There are many Bible verses that can be used as defense of holy water.
There are also verses which can be used to show that the idea of holy objects is Biblical, that God actually has used objects to carry out His plan.

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To answer KJB's questions,

1. Verses such as these (Ex. 29:4, Lev. 8:6; Exodus 30:17; Numbers 5:17; Numbers 8:5-7; 1 Kings 7:38-39; John 9:6-7; John 13:4-10; John 19:34) can show God's hand and even command for us to use Holy Water, or at least in the context of the Old Testament (and allusions to the OT in John's Gospel).
Numbers 5:17 actually uses the word "holy water"

2. Holy Water is used in Baptism as a symbol of the actual cleansing of sins that occur at Baptism.
It also serves as a blessing (such as a priest's blessing) to people, places, or objects.
(The verses above are stricly for understanding holy water through Scriptures, not so much its effect and not its effect in Baptism [Baptism is a Sacrament which uses Holy Water, which is a sacramental])


Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia's article on Holy Water,
www.newadvent.org/cathen/07432a.htm

And Wikipedia,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water

And another webiste explaining many things about it,
landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/holy_water2.htm


Pax Christi,
Juan J.

[kingjamesbond]

Thanks for the new thread.

Would you be kind enough to post some of the Scripture text instead of only the locations?

I have mucho mucho work to do at the moment, but I am still interested in lurking and reading what you have to say on the holy water topic.

Take care,

KJB

[Cepha]

kingjamesbond said:

Thanks for the new thread.

Would you be kind enough to post some of the Scripture text instead of only the locations?

I have mucho mucho work to do at the moment, but I am still interested in lurking and reading what you have to say on the holy water topic.

Take care,

KJB

Did somebody ask for Scriptures related to the use of holy water?

Holy Water
Ex. 29:4; Lev. 8:6 - Aaron and his sons were washed in holy water in their consecration to the priesthood. Thus, we see the use of holy water during the beginning of salvation history.

Ex. 30:18-19 - the Lord requires Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and feet in holy water before they offered sacrifices to Him. The Church uses holy water for various purposes, and holy water fonts are generally located at the entrance of Catholic churches to be used before the sacrifice of Christ is offered to the Father.

Num. 5:17 - here again, the priest uses holy water. God uses natural matter to convey the supernatural, just as God who is Spirit became flesh in Christ Jesus.

Num. 8:7 - the Lord says to "sprinkle them with the water of remission." The Lord uses water, a physical property, to convey His supernatural property of grace.

1 Kings 7:38-39 - in King Solomon's temple, there were ten large basins of holy water. Holy water has always been used in the context of worship.

John 9:6-7 – Jesus uses clay and spittle to heal the blind man’s eyes, and ordered him to wash in the pool of Siloam to effect the cure. Jesus did not need to use spittle, clay and water, but He does to demonstrate that God uses the material things He created to give graces and heal us.

John 13:4-10 - the Lord uses water to wash the apostles' feet to prepare them for their sacramental priesthood.

John 19:34 - water and blood flowed from Jesus' pierced side on the Cross. The Church uses holy water as a symbol of our Lord's life giving water that flowed from His sacred Heart, and as the property which brings about the power of Jesus Christ Himself, in baptism, the Eucharist, and other sacred rites of the Church.

www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html#holy_water

[Cepha]

The Didache: The Teachings of The 12 Apostles

CHAPTER 7
CONCERNING BAPTISM

1) And concerning baptism, baptize this way: After reviewing all of this teaching, baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in living (running) water.

2) But if living water is not available, then baptize into other water; and cold is prefered, but if not available in warm.

3) But if neither is available, pour water three times upon the head in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

4) But before the baptism, let the overseer fast, and also the one being baptized, and all others who are able; Be sure to instruct the one being baptized to fast one or two days before.

ivanlewis.com/Didache/didache.html

[I.M.Apologetics]

KJB,
I understand. Sometimes people (including me) do not really read the Scripture passages when posted.

I will site the passages with as much context as in to at least have it make sense.
They are the same ones as given by Cephas above, taken from www.scriptureCatholic.com , except that the guy who runs the website sometimes seems to stretch the verses too much, and even other Catholic apologists (professional and amateru alike) critique him for that.
In here I lay them out and put out those who I did not think truly fit in. The parenthesis are my comments.

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Exodus 29:4, Leviticus 8:6; Exodus 30:17; Numbers 5:17; Numbers 8:5-7; 1 Kings 7:38-39; John 9:6-7; John 13:4-10; John 19:34

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Ex. 29:4
You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the door of the tent of meeting, and wash them with water.
Lev. 8:6
And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.
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Exodus 30:17
The LORD said to Moses,
"You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base of bronze, for washing. And you shall put it between the tent of meeting and the altar, and you shall put water in it, with which Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet.
When they go into the tent of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering by fire to the LORD, they shall wash with water, lest they die. They shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die: it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his descendants throughout their generations."
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Numbers 5:17
And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water.
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Numbers 8:5-7
And the LORD said to Moses,
"Take the Levites from among the people of Israel, and cleanse them.
And thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of expiation upon them, and let them go with a razor over all their body, and wash their clothes and cleanse themselves."
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1 Kings 7:38-39 (the baths, possibly suggesting water in worship)
And he made ten lavers of bronze; each laver held forty baths, each laver measured four cubits, and there was a laver for each of the ten stands.
And he set the stands, five on the south side of the house, and five on the north side of the house; and he set the sea on the southeast corner of the house.
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John 9:6-7
As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man's eyes with the clay, saying to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Silo'am" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.
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John 13:4-10 (perhaps alluding to OT use of water)
[Jesus] rose from supper, laid aside his garments, and girded himself with a towel.
Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.
He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, "Lord, do you wash my feet?"
Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand."
Peter said to him, "You shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part in me."
Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!"
Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you."
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John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

[kingjamesbond]

imapologetics,

KJB,
I understand. Sometimes people (including me) do not really read the Scripture passages when posted.

Thanks, I really did not have a lot of time at the moment to do all the research.

I will site the passages with as much context as in to at least have it make sense.
They are the same ones as given by Cephas above, taken from www.scriptureCatholic.com , except that the guy who runs the website sometimes seems to stretch the verses too much, and even other Catholic apologists (professional and amateru alike) critique him for that.
In here I lay them out and put out those who I did not think truly fit in. The parenthesis are my comments.

Thanks for the info.

Yeah....many of us all can stretch verses too much. I am guilty of doing that I am sure.

Here are a few you provided;

Ex. 29:4
You shall bring Aaron and his sons to the door of the tent of meeting, and wash them with water.

Lev. 8:6
And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

When my children played in the mud........I told them to wash with water.

Before we all go to church.......we all wash with water.

Before we eat our meals, we wash our hands with water.

None of what you provided is any different than what I provided.

It does not make water holy.

Exodus 30:17
The LORD said to Moses,
"You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base of bronze, for washing. And you shall put it between the tent of meeting and the altar, and you shall put water in it, with which Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet.
When they go into the tent of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering by fire to the LORD, they shall wash with water, lest they die. They shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die: it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his descendants throughout their generations."

So.....do Roman Catholics use tents also?

Do you all wash your hands and feet before you all go into the tent?

How about burning offerings?

How often do you all burn offereings exactly as they were told to do?

Why not use everything mentioned?

Why concentrate only on the water and leave out the tents, the offerings, the hands, the feet........etc?

How many people enter a Roman Catholic mass without washing, and do not die?

Noah was told to build a ship. Does that insinuate and tell us that ships are holy and sacred?

Numbers 5:17
And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water.

Do Roman Catholic priests take the dust from the floor of the tabernacle and put it in the water?

Do you see what I am getting at?

With those verses that are provided, we can see that they are a real stretch.

Abraham was told to sacrifice his only son......are we all to follow suit?

Aaron was told this, Moses was told that, Noah was told this.

Some people were told to put blood on door posts.......does that mean we should all put blood on our door posts and consider it holy and sacred?

Does the Roman Catholic church go around putting blood on door posts?

What exactly does holy water do?

I think you get the idea of what I am getting at.

Take care,

KJB

[Cepha]

Holy water baptizes Christians.

[I.M.Apologetics]

KJB,

1. Note that Scriptures talking specifically about Moses, Aaron and his sons, not just anybody going to worship.
Notice that this is either some symbolical washing, or at least a ritual washing.
This does not suggest Holy Water immediately, but it shows that water has been used in worship even then, since it is not only in the context of worship ("the tent of meeting", but also specifically about Aaron and his sons...

2. You must remember that Christianity is the fullfilment of Judaism, since Christ is the fulfillment of the Old [Moses'] Law.
Thus, since Catholicism is the original and therefore oldest form of Christianity, being traced back to the Apostles, then there are indeed resemblences with Jewish worship, yet under the New Order, the New Covenant.
Since we are no longer in persecution or literal pilgrimage (we are in Earthly pilgrimate to New Jerusalem), then we do not use tents, but we do have temples with holy water "founts" either at the entrace of the church or inside.
This is to remind of our Baptism and to cleanse us from our sins, again, as a reminder of the Baptismal water which washes our sins away through the Holy Spirit.
It also serves as a symbolic remembrance of what is stated in Ex 30:17, though of course not a literal washing, and certainly not of feet... :-p

So yes, we do "wash" our hands (not feet) before going to worship.
We do have a sort of burnt offering, we have Christ Himself sacramentally (thus without blood or suffering) sacrificed for us.

See, you're making the mistake to think that Catholics either do not follow the Scriptures (you claim Holy Water is not Scriptural), or that Catholics are bound to be like fundamentalists and follow Scriptures in a literalistic manner, doing everything word by word.

Nay, it is not so with the Church. Christ has fulfilled (not done away with) the Law, and so Catholicism takes the old and makes it new.

3. Notice that the dust is in front of the Tabernacle, where God's presence dwells.
Priests, when they make holy water, they utter a blessing and put salt in it. I do not know if it has to do with this, but I find it somewhat curious that such is mentioned and done.

You also have to remember that Holy Water is a practice, not an article of faith nor some kind of doctrine. At the very least it reminds us of our Baptism, and there is no harm in any of this.

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The verses are not stretches because I even said that even if these verses do not "prove" Holy Water, at least they suggest water in the Old Testament worship.
The verses are simply a Scriptural basis for it, and at the very least they will show that Holy Water by no means contradict Scriptures...

But remember that since Scriptures never point to itself as our only source of authority, then Catholics have never held on to the Bible-alone, especially since 2nd century Catholics did not have a definite New Testament canon... the idea would be ridiculous to them, yet there are traditions stating that Holy Water may have started by an Apostle himself, since, according to the tradition, he thought it would be familiar with/to the Jews.

So again, this would suggest that the water as mentioned in the verses is only a symbol, a type of what is to come, just as St. Paul mentions: "These [festival or a new moon or a sabbath] are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:17)

Just as Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, which you mention, is a type of Christ's sacrifice... ("your only son Isaac, whom you love" and Isaac carrying the wood in his back) is a type of Christ, it points to Christ, it is a shadow which is revealed in Christ.


So while your objections may seem fair, you are missing a fundamental point or two, which makes such objections naturally rise.

Btw, I am no expert in Holy Water. It does not contradict Scriptures, it comes from Tradition, Holy Church has not done away with it. It also is not an article of faith nor a doctrine, so I am not bound to either believe it or reject it, but I see benefits in it, and again, at the very least it will remind me of my Baptism.


Pax Christi,
Juan J.

[I.M.Apologetics]

KJB, btw, I remember your post in CUSA about Abortion and Original Sin that I never replied to. It got deleted just as everything else did (well, I see that literally everything else got deleted).
Feel free to make a new thread, since I cannot remember too much what exactly you were asking (and it won't get deleted here, so we're safe).

Pax Christi!