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Post by Cepha on Aug 20, 2008 14:27:33 GMT -5
Matter of fact, let's focus on that for now: Revelation 1 (from a universal Christian Bible, not the bible produced by the same people who produce The Satanic Bible) 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne; Pretty cut and dry...Jesus is addressing only "these" Churches to receive Revelation. No other Church is mentioned. Not Rome. Not Antioch. And, there are only 7 Spirits for these particular Churches. Rome doesn't have one, neither does Antioch (why? if they were true Churches? Because no Churches existed there when this was written.) Do you think your local Saint Mary's Church has the same authority to teach as Vatican City does? The only reason any local Church has any authenticity is because "of" Vatican City. How many Catholic Churches today are literally preaching heresy today? More than you can imagine! There are priests that are constantly being reprimanded for their going off of Church teaching (hence the need for one true teaching authority). 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet
11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Here, the only (again, the "only") Churches that were deemed worthy to receive this revelation are literally named. Where's Rome? Where's Antioch? Where's Jeruselum?  Why were they not worthy of receiving the last book of The Bible? These Churches were the teaching authority! They were the ones to hand these teachings out and to decide who got them. 19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches. Why doesn't Rome or Antioch or Jeruselum have angels? Jeruselum is elevated to a higher state than these Churches later on in Heaven. Antioch would be the grounding of The Church until God would turn The Church's persecutors into Christianity's protectors and set His Church smack in the middle of The Roman Empire's Headquarters in Rome! Only these 7 Churches were given The Book of Revelations. These were the only true Churches at the time. You've provided no evidence that there even were other Churches which had the authority to receive these revelations. But here's your chance: [ insert answer here] ;D Take a hint from Saint John...don't question, just accept. John didn't say "Hey, Jesus...what about the other Churches?" He just put pen to papyrus and wrote away. If The Bible says it, I accept it! The Bible doesn't say that there were other Churches with the teaching authority to receive these works at the time that Jesus commanded Saint John to write it.  |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 20, 2008 14:29:27 GMT -5
I'll give you 24 hours to come up with something. Take heart and come on! I will not fly away. I fear nothing, except treason! teresa 24 hours? Try 24 minutes! ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 20, 2008 14:42:16 GMT -5
It should be understood that "churches" in this context refers to the community of Christians living in each city, and not merely to the building or buildings in which they gathered for worship[1][2].
The seven churches are located in:
Ephesus (also see Church of Mary)
Smyrna
Pergamum
Thyatira
Sardis (the See of Sardis)
Philadelphia
and Laodicea, near Denizli (see Laodicean Church) Historically speaking, there were buildings where they worshipped. But, the revelation wasn't to the people. As always in scripture, it is to The Church (The Heirchy) first, then it is given to The Church (The Congregation). Do you expect that John wrote 1 Book per Church? Or one book to each member of that Church (possibly thousands of books)? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_churches_of_AsiaNow, if we were going by "just" the communities in those towns (and not the Church Heirchy), then this would exclude all other Christan communities (Churches) "not" mentioned in John 1. Your very own definition (from what I understand you to believe how "Church" is being used here) excludes all other Christian groups from receiving The Book of Revelation. Mine includes them as the 7 Churches are the only ones reflected in Heaven with their own angels...therefore, these Churches are the only authorities on teaching the rest of Christendom making them the only true Churches at that time. How could Jesus "not" give this revelation to other true Churches? Why would you believe that He would exclude them?
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 21, 2008 12:59:18 GMT -5
Ha! How the mighty have fallen!
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If any one of you adds anything to them, God will add to you the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if any one of you takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from you your share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. Rev. 22
6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev. 22
So you are saying that all the other Christians NOT in Asia minor were not including in the "blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of he prophecy of this book."?
Then according to that logic (that it was only for the churches of asia minor to read) then WE shouldn't even have a copy of the letter!
Besides, I wasn't "insulting" you, it was more of a friendly chide, a spurring of love. You want to be held accountable, No?
This is where you said Paul wrote Revelation. I allowed that it was a typo out of respect, but if you meant Paul, well....
Do I ever!!!!
How "worthy" could they have been if Jesus said the following to them:
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
If they were worthy, but all the other Churches were not,
Then I can't imagine what kind of wretched things that they were doing in Rome or Corinth or Jerusalem to be LESS worthy?!
And can YOU show me in Revelation where it says those 7 churches had a PHYSICAL building? NOPE.
If you can show me that there were physical churces in Asia minor with "an altar, candles.. and a big sign..." then I will try to find the same proof for Rome.
teresa
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 22, 2008 13:12:54 GMT -5
Where did you go Cepha? I just wanted to remind you again, that Revelation was written near the end of St. John's life. He was the last living apostle. St. Peter and St. Paul were martyred many years before Revelation. To make the claim that the 7 Churches of Rev. were the only "teaching authority" is to completely undermine all of your other posts about the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Do you really want to do that? Jesus didn't say that those were the "only" churches, or that they were the only teaching authority! Nor can you show me anywhere in Rev. that says these Churches were physical buildings. Elsewhere the term "church" is used to address Congregations, not necessarily with a "church building". As I said before, sometimes they met in people's homes. 1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also (1 Cor. 16) 2To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: (1 Cor. 1) 15Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.
16When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea(Col. 4) 3Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,
4who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles;
5also greet the church that is in their house Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. (Romans 16) Teresa |
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 25, 2008 10:02:25 GMT -5
Cepha?
If you don't respond by Wednesday, I'm going to declare myself the winner.
teresa
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Post by hellknowz on Aug 25, 2008 10:32:33 GMT -5
Wow what a woman, she's giving this Cepha that much time?? I say Teresa wins, and not by default either. lol
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 25, 2008 10:52:28 GMT -5
Thanks hellknowz!
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Post by hellknowz on Aug 25, 2008 12:05:33 GMT -5
You're very welcome, may Yeshua continue to uide you in knowledge of THE BOOK.
YEHOVAH BE PRAISED
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Post by whathell on Aug 25, 2008 18:38:54 GMT -5
THE BIBLE (THE BOOK) Check your mail. |
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Post by whathell on Aug 27, 2008 8:58:09 GMT -5
Cepha? If you don't respond by Wednesday, I'm going to declare myself the winner. teresa |
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Post by knuckle on Aug 27, 2008 10:45:50 GMT -5
In all fairness Cepha is out of town----no puter but that IS FUNNY  much love------------knuckle |
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 27, 2008 11:21:24 GMT -5
out of town? arrahaharhjggrrrrr!
Ok, I'll wait till you come back Cepha
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 27, 2008 12:11:29 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Aug 29, 2008 14:03:25 GMT -5
In all fairness Cepha is out of town----no puter but that IS FUNNY much love------------knuckle Know what's the funniest thing? He got that (crickets chirping) from me. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on Aug 29, 2008 14:08:17 GMT -5
To make the claim that the 7 Churches of Rev. were the only "teaching authority" is to completely undermine all of your other posts about the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Negative...re-read my posts. One fact doesn't undo the other. And...answer my questions posted to you instead of just asking more questions. I was nice enough to re-post them for you, wasn't I? ;D Re-read what I posted (I know it's a lot) and answer the questions I posted to you. We can't have an "exchange" if you are not going to respond to the questions I posted to you after I responded to yours. Come on now, you're in the big leagues now...you "have to" answer questions posted to you! ;D Joan of Arc would've answered me. |
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Post by teresahrc on Aug 31, 2008 11:45:35 GMT -5
I was challanging YOU. You need to give a defense for the specific things I was questioning YOU.
How absurd to demand that I answer your questions when you haven't even answered MY questions.
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
Show me where:
1. The Bible says the 7 churches were the only "true" Churches at the time
2. Show me how these churches were more "worthy" than the other churches
3. Show me how the other churches were "heretical"
Keep in mind that St. Peter and St. Paul had already been martyred in ROME at the time Revelation was written.
teresa
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 8, 2008 11:59:54 GMT -5
Cepha, I have 3 words for you:
Veni,
Vidi,
Vici!
Teresa
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Post by Cepha on Sept 8, 2008 17:41:25 GMT -5
Cepha, I have 3 words for you: Veni, Vidi, Vici!Teresa You´re so cute T! |
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Post by teresahrc on Sept 8, 2008 17:50:16 GMT -5
What do you mean cute?
Cute?
How about fierce?
Victorious?
So do you surrender?
Did I win?
teresa
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