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Post by Cepha on Mar 25, 2008 8:34:20 GMT -5
Like a religious buffet, some Christians decide to "pick and choose" for themselves what they want to believe completely ignoring certain parts of The Holy Bible because of the topics they speak of which support the religion they protest.
Do you "pick and choose"?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Mar 25, 2008 18:21:45 GMT -5
well, there are a few things i dont agree with accourding to the Catholic church, but im not going to leave and join some other church. For instance, birth control...i dont see it to be a problem. Also confession, i fell like as long as i confess to Jesus and he knows how i feel, i'll be ok. I think that is about it. There is no other religion i could belong to but the Catholic faith.
Birth control is approved by The Church...it's called "natural birth planning".
What it doesn't approve of is of man-made impliments that interfere with the natural process God ordained.
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 16:25:23 GMT -5
Sadly this happens a LOT within the Catholic Church. There are some who do not choose to live in state of grace and seldom go to Confession, yet receive the Eucharist every Sunday... And go to Mass every Sunday only because it's what they've done all life. There are others who want female priests, who want abortions, who want Latin out of the Church, who practice contraception, pre-martial sex, who want homosexual marriages, etc.  |
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Post by I.M.Apologetics on Apr 3, 2008 16:36:27 GMT -5
Holy Catholic Church has Christ's authority, and God cannot deceive nor be deceived.
Thus when the Catholic Church makes stands in matters of faith and morals (which include contraception and surely Confession).
There are other things, disciplines or practices, which may change when appropiate. The essence of the Liturgy cannot change, but how it is carried out has changed (or more precisely, developed) over time. The celibacy of the priesthood is also a discipline, though it has always existed throughout the history of the Church, it just wasn't always a norm like it is for the Roman/Latin Rite.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 21:07:59 GMT -5
well, there are a few things i dont agree with accourding to the Catholic church, but im not going to leave and join some other church. For instance, birth control...i dont see it to be a problem. Also confession, i fell like as long as i confess to Jesus and he knows how i feel, i'll be ok. I think that is about it. There is no other religion i could belong to but the Catholic faith. Birth control is approved by The Church...it's called "natural birth planning". What it doesn't approve of is of man-made impliments that interfere with the natural process God ordained. Birth control is approved by The Church...it's called "natural birth planning". What it doesn't approve of is of man-made impliments that interfere with the natural process God ordained. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 21:08:59 GMT -5
Sadly this happens a LOT within the Catholic Church. There are some who do not choose to live in state of grace and seldom go to Confession, yet receive the Eucharist every Sunday... And go to Mass every Sunday only because it's what they've done all life. There are others who want female priests, who want abortions, who want Latin out of the Church, who practice contraception, pre-martial sex, who want homosexual marriages, etc. Not me. If The Pope told me to jump off a bridge, I'd jump off a bridge. I'm hard core. I believe everything Jesus said, therefore, I believe in His Church. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 3, 2008 21:24:16 GMT -5
sorry guys, but i would NEVER jump off of any bridge if the pope said to! That is just crazy!
But, i cant really budge on the birth control thing, i just dont see a problem with it. Its not abortion, its prevention. Maybe im just stubborn, i dunno!
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 3, 2008 21:37:36 GMT -5
LOL, I'm with Marcie on both issues.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 3, 2008 23:32:26 GMT -5
sorry guys, but i would NEVER jump off of any bridge if the pope said to! That is just crazy! But, i cant really budge on the birth control thing, i just dont see a problem with it. Its not abortion, its prevention. Maybe im just stubborn, i dunno! Marcie! You Heretic! If he says jump, you're supposed to ask "How high?" ;D (come on guys, you know I was just funnin' ya!) Now, on birth control, if you actively refuse to accept Mother Church's teaching on it, then you are "not" a practicing Catholic. But hey, let's see what The Church Fathers have to say about it: ============================================= The Letter of Barnabas "Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29]. For he means, ‘Thou shall not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shall thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness’" (Letter of Barnabas 10:8 [A.D. 74]). Clement of Alexandria "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]). "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature" (ibid., 2:10:95:3). Hippolytus "[Christian women with male concubines], on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:12 [A.D. 225]). Lactantius "[Some] complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20 [A.D. 307]). "God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital [’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring" (ibid., 6:23:18). Council of Nicaea I " f anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1 [A.D. 325]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
"They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption" (Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 [A.D. 375]).
Augustine
"This proves that you [Manicheans] approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion. In marriage, as the marriage law declares, the man and woman come together for the procreation of children. Therefore, whoever makes the procreation of children a greater sin than copulation, forbids marriage and makes the woman not a wife but a mistress, who for some gifts presented to her is joined to the man to gratify his passion" (The Morals of the Manichees 18:65 [A.D. 388]).
"You [Manicheans] make your auditors adulterers of their wives when they take care lest the women with whom they copulate conceive. They take wives according to the laws of matrimony by tablets announcing that the marriage is contracted to procreate children; and then, fearing because of your law [against childbearing] . . . they copulate in a shameful union only to satisfy lust for their wives. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made. How is it, then, that you are not those prohibiting marriage, as the apostle predicted of you so long ago [1 Tim. 4:1–4], when you try to take from marriage what marriage is? When this is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, bridal chambers are brothels, fathers-in-law are pimps" (Against Faustus 15:7 [A.D. 400]).
"For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny" (ibid., 22:30).
"For necessary sexual intercourse for begetting [children] is alone worthy of marriage. But that which goes beyond this necessity no longer follows reason but lust. And yet it pertains to the character of marriage . . . to yield it to the partner lest by fornication the other sin damnably [through adultery]. . . . [T]hey [must] not turn away from them the mercy of God . . . by changing the natural use into that which is against nature, which is more damnable when it is done in the case of husband or wife. For, whereas that natural use, when it pass beyond the compact of marriage, that is, beyond the necessity of begetting [children], is pardonable in the case of a wife, damnable in the case of a harlot; that which is against nature is execrable when done in the case of a harlot, but more execrable in the case of a wife. Of so great power is the ordinance of the Creator, and the order of creation, that . . . when the man shall wish to use a body part of the wife not allowed for this purpose [orally or anally consummated sex], the wife is more shameful, if she suffer it to take place in her own case, than if in the case of another woman" (The Good of Marriage 11–12 [A.D. 401]).
...
"I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility. . . . Assuredly if both husband and wife are like this, they are not married, and if they were like this from the beginning they come together not joined in matrimony but in seduction. If both are not like this, I dare to say that either the wife is in a fashion the harlot of her husband or he is an adulterer with his own wife" (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 [A.D. 419]).
John Chrysostom
"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. . . . Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws? . . . Yet such turpitude . . . the matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks" (Homilies on Romans 24 [A.D. 391]).
"n truth, all men know that they who are under the power of this disease [the sin of covetousness] are wearied even of their father’s old age [wishing him to die so they can inherit]; and that which is sweet, and universally desirable, the having of children, they esteem grievous and unwelcome. Many at least with this view have even paid money to be childless, and have mutilated nature, not only killing the newborn, but even acting to prevent their beginning to live" (Homilies on Matthew 28:5 [A.D. 391]).
"[T]he man who has mutilated himself, in fact, is subject even to a curse, as Paul says, ‘I would that they who trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]. And very reasonably, for such a person is venturing on the deeds of murderers, and giving occasion to them that slander God’s creation, and opens the mouths of the Manicheans, and is guilty of the same unlawful acts as they that mutilate themselves among the Greeks. For to cut off our members has been from the beginning a work of demonical agency, and satanic device, that they may bring up a bad report upon the works of God, that they may mar this living creature, that imputing all not to the choice, but to the nature of our members, the more part of them may sin in security as being irresponsible, and doubly harm this living creature, both by mutilating the members and by impeding the forwardness of the free choice in behalf of good deeds" (ibid., 62:3).
"Observe how bitterly he [Paul] speaks against their deceivers . . . ‘I would that they which trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]. . . . On this account he curses them, and his meaning is as follows: ‘For them I have no concern, "A man that is heretical after the first and second admonition refuse" [Titus 3:10]. If they will, let them not only be circumcised but mutilated.’ Where then are those who dare to mutilate themselves, seeing that they draw down the apostolic curse, and accuse the workmanship of God, and take part with the Manichees?" (Commentary on Galatians 5:12 [A.D. 395]).
Jerome
"But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?" (Against Jovinian 1:19 [A.D. 393]).
"You may see a number of women who are widows before they are wives. Others, indeed, will drink sterility and murder a man not yet born, [and some commit abortion]" (Letters 22:13 [A.D. 396]).
Caesarius of Arles
"Who is he who cannot warn that no woman may take a potion so that she is unable to conceive or condemns in herself the nature which God willed to be fecund? As often as she could have conceived or given birth, of that many homicides she will be held guilty, and, unless she undergoes suitable penance, she will be damned by eternal death in hell. If a woman does not wish to have children, let her enter into a religious agreement with her husband; for chastity is the sole sterility of a Christian woman" (Sermons 1:12 [A.D. 522]).
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Or, how it angers God when one has sex for pleasure without the intent of producing a child for their own self gratification:
Genesis 38:6-9
6 And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar.
7 And Er, Judah's first-born, was wicked in the sight of Jehovah. And Jehovah slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother.
Leviticus 15:16-18
16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall bathe all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.
17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
18 The woman also with whom a man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 3, 2008 23:48:44 GMT -5
I guess im a sinner...dont know what else to say about it, im not stopping my bc, i cant afford another child now.
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ann
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Post by ann on Apr 3, 2008 23:57:18 GMT -5
I guess im a sinner...dont know what else to say about it, im not stopping my bc, i cant afford another child now. You're "a sinner" because you use birth control? Please tell me that you're speaking tongue-in-cheek. Surely you don't really believe birth control usage makes one "a sinner." And, if you do believe it, how can you use it, while speaking so flippantly? I'm missing something here. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 4, 2008 0:02:04 GMT -5
well, what i am saying is that if the early Christians believed it to be bad because that is what Jesus would have believed, then i guess im in trouble. But i cant not use bc, its not feasable.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 4, 2008 0:02:59 GMT -5
what is "flippantly"? Please talk to me at a college level, nothing above that...lol
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ann
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Post by ann on Apr 4, 2008 0:07:45 GMT -5
well, what i am saying is that if the early Christians believed it to be bad because that is what Jesus would have believed, then i guess im in trouble. But i cant not use bc, its not feasable. Hold on a second here...Your statements are truly mind boggling to me. First, you're basing what you believe about birth control on what "early Christians believed" because "Jesus would have believed" it? Did Jesus teach about it? Did Jesus "believe" anything, for that matter, or was He the One who established and defined truth--and in fact was The Truth? Another thing: you "guess you're in trouble?" You say it so flippantly! And then you say, "Oh, well"  Is this how most Catholics approach things like this? |
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ann
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Post by ann on Apr 4, 2008 0:09:39 GMT -5
what is "flippantly"? Please talk to me at a college level, nothing above that...lol lol....To be flippant is to treat a serious subject in a lighthearted manner. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 4, 2008 0:11:51 GMT -5
am i Most Catholics... NO i am myself, thanks! And i will believe what i wish and do as i wish. Its my body and im sure Jesus will forgive me.
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 0:37:28 GMT -5
I guess im a sinner...dont know what else to say about it, im not stopping my bc, i cant afford another child now. We're all sinners. However, you can honestly say that you "pick and choose that belief." I'm surprised you don't know about natural family planning. It's contraception free. I understand your concerns about not having another child yet and respect that. However, you should do it how The Church teaches us to do it. Know why birth control is not accepted by The Church? Because it turns the natural act of sex (a gift from God) into a self gratification act instead of a giving act. Anyway, to each his/her own. I personally don't wouldn't use any. Not only because The Church tells me it's wrong, but because Scripture teaches it as well as those God chose to reveal the canon of The Bible to mankind. |
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Post by Cepha on Apr 4, 2008 0:48:05 GMT -5
ann
Ann, not everything that Jesus taught is in Scripture. What isn't in scripture was taught to The Apostles oraly and they passed on these teachings first in The Didache (the first Christian doctrine that existed even before the Bible) and through the magistarium of The Church.
Everything we believe as Christians doesn't come from Scripture.
In fact, those things that define a Christian (the belief in Salvation, Justification, The Divinity of Christ) are not in The Bible but come from The Church that created The Bible.
As for how Catholics approach things, when you're dealing with a Church of 1.3 Billion, there are bound to be variances in practice. For you to automatically attach one Catholic's belief to the majority of Catholics in a question is unreasonable.
Do all non-Catholics believe in Benny Hinn? Of course not.
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ann
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Post by ann on Apr 4, 2008 13:44:07 GMT -5
Ann, not everything that Jesus taught is in Scripture. What isn't in scripture was taught to The Apostles oraly and they passed on these teachings first in The Didache (the first Christian doctrine that existed even before the Bible) and through the magistarium of The Church. Do you believe the Didache to be as "inspired" as the canon of Scripture? If it is, why did the church not include it in the canon? By saying "we," I assume you are speaking only of yourself and other "Catholics" (not as in the "catholic" church, but as in the religion opposed to protestantism). You certainly do not speak for "me" in your "we."  Scripture alone is a sufficient base for all of my faith and practice. "The Church" created the Bible? (Change the verb to "compiled," and I might come closer to agreeing with you.) II Tim. 3:16-17 is clear that " all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect (or whole/mature), throughly furnished unto every good work." These verses indicate that Scripture alone is sufficient to "throughly furnish" a man with everything he needs to know doctrinally, correctively, and instructionally. That about covers everything, IMO. Do you read the Bible often? If you do, I have a hard time believing that you have not yet found the subjects of salvation, justification, and Christ's divinity addressed. Of course it is...However, I thought I saw that cradlecathlic is a moderator on this site. Perhaps I assumed too much when I thought that a moderator on a Catholic site would operate pretty much along the "party line," which, as far as I know, is "no birth control." If you go by what Augustine and others have said, even natural family planning is out of the question (although Augustine's views on abortion were decidedly more liberal than the Catholic church's "official position" today). I think my question to cradlecathlic strikes at a deeper issue than just birth control...Either the Pope has absolute authority, or he doesn't. Either the church fathers have absolute authority, or they don't. Either "The Church" has absolute authority, or it doesn't. The way a person lives--what he practices or doesn't practice--reveals how he really believes about these issues. A person who decides to use b/c, even though it has been condemned by the Pope (and "the Church"), reveals that he is not Catholic after all. He has placed himself in an autonomous position, outside "The Church." As a Protestant who believes wholeheartedly in the sufficiency of Scripture for faith and practice, I do not have the authority to "pick and choose" which commands I must obey, or which teachings of Jesus I can "fudge on," because He'll forgive me anyway. If I truly love Jesus, I will want to obey and please Him. The view that it is all right to sin intentionally, with the idea that "Oh, well. I just can't obey that teaching, so He'll just have to forgive me," is so very warped, and indicates that the person thinking this way has no idea what "sin" is, or what it cost Jesus to die for that sin so flippantly committed. I'm so thankful that Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." I rejoice that "His commands are not grievous." He didn't come with a rule book in hand. He does not ask us to do things we're not able to do. Rather, He graciously enables us to follow His teachings, which are not burdensome if we truly know Him. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 4, 2008 14:09:02 GMT -5
Ok, i was thinking about this one.... Baptists are not supposed to drink....BUT they do. Or some do. In my mind, its kinda the same. Catholics are not supposed to use BC but some do, like me.  |
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Is this how most Catholics approach things like this?
Scripture alone is a sufficient base for all of my faith and practice. 