reformed
New Member
Sola Deo Gloria
Posts: 6
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John 6
Nov 1, 2008 12:59:17 GMT -5
Post by reformed on Nov 1, 2008 12:59:17 GMT -5
John 6:36 But I said unto you that you also have seen me, and you believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me.
39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.
40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.
Verse 39 really well...contradicts the teaching that salvation can be lost, and logically concludes that salvation is not dependent on the efforts of man...but the will of God.
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John 6
Nov 4, 2008 10:04:02 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Nov 4, 2008 10:04:02 GMT -5
John 6:36 But I said unto you that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day. Verse 39 really well...contradicts the teaching that salvation can be lost, and logically concludes that salvation is not dependent on the efforts of man...but the will of God. You do understand that that is Jesus talking. No where in The Bible does it say that salvation is guaranteed. In fact, the scriptures are clear...even the so called "believers" are judged and cast from Heaven upon judgement. If they were guaranteed salvation just by believing, then Satan would be saved because he believes that Jesus is The Messiah and knows that He is The Son of God. |
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John 6
Dec 13, 2008 19:42:44 GMT -5
Post by knuckle on Dec 13, 2008 19:42:44 GMT -5
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
you will note two groups
1 all men
2 the sub-group those that believe
now if all men are not going to be saved then the verse lies and God is not the savior of all men
hmmm
Got to go with the bible on this one guys.......
much love---------------knuckle
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John 6
Dec 14, 2008 15:37:59 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 14, 2008 15:37:59 GMT -5
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. you will note two groups 1 all men 2 the sub-group those that believe now if all men are not going to be saved then the verse lies and God is not the savior of all men hmmm Got to go with the bible on this one guys....... much love---------------knuckle Easy Knucks...salvation is conditional. The price was paid. The sacrifice made and accepted, but there are conditions (faith, works, baptism, etc...). Salvation is a gift that can be lost. Jesus died for all men (that was the "act"), but men are not forced to accept his sacrifice for them. They could reject it's conditions and thus, not receive it's benefits. |
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John 6
Dec 15, 2008 5:56:19 GMT -5
Post by knuckle on Dec 15, 2008 5:56:19 GMT -5
Only in the here and now Bro.---We all gonna walk through the fire --- the choice is do we do it now with a humble heart and enter the Kingdom as a son or do we be hard headed and go through it with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth?
much love------------knuckle
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John 6
Dec 17, 2008 11:22:16 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 17, 2008 11:22:16 GMT -5
Only in the here and now Bro.---We all gonna walk through the fire --- the choice is do we do it now with a humble heart and enter the Kingdom as a son or do we be hard headed and go through it with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth? much love------------knuckle Sheeps and goats bro...sheeps and goats.  |
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John 6
Dec 17, 2008 11:24:50 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 17, 2008 11:24:50 GMT -5
Here's the CC's position:
Water baptism cleanses you of original sin.
Confirmation (baptism of The Holy Spirit which comes when the participant does it of their own accord) is what brings one into full communion (common union) with Jesus.
Scripture is states that there are some who are baptised in water, but are not baptised in the Holy Spirit "yet" and they must be.
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John 6
Dec 17, 2008 14:41:37 GMT -5
Post by Reformedalt on Dec 17, 2008 14:41:37 GMT -5
Satan does not have saving faith; putting his trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and repentance of his sins.
Mind discussing John 6:39?
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John 6
Dec 17, 2008 16:09:09 GMT -5
Post by cradlecathlic27 on Dec 17, 2008 16:09:09 GMT -5
How about we move on and discuss John 6:48-59!
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John 6
Dec 18, 2008 10:17:56 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 18, 2008 10:17:56 GMT -5
Satan does not have saving faith; putting his trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and repentance of his sins. Mind discussing John 6:39? What is "saving faith"? And from what I understand, those terms you used "putting his trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and repentance of his sins" don't appear anywhere in the formula of salvation (unless of course you can refer to a scripture that lines this out). John 6! I love John 6! Especially the part where Christians couldn't accept The Holy Eucharist and turned their back on The Church and walked away...know what number that is? John 6:66! Sometimes, the numbers speak louder than the letters! But anyway, sure, let's talk about John 6:39 ("in" context...not just a verse or a fragment of a passage, but the entire passage so that there'd be no room for personal interpretation): John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. All I see is Jesus stating that belief "in" Him is enough. No "saving" faith reference there. We could talk about all of the instances where supposedly "saved" believing Christians were condemned to hell like the Sheep and the Goats reference of Jesus. Remember them? They believed, but their faith wasn't enough to save them. They went to hell anyway. God's graces is what saves. Faith is just belief. But even non-believers are subject to pleasing God and doing His will (remember the Good Samaritan that Jesus used as an example to show so-called believers what they were to do to please God? The Samaritan was not only a non-believer, but also they were enemies of Jews, yet this Good Samaritan was used by Jesus Himself to show that even they could please God and do His will). Pax |
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John 6
Dec 18, 2008 10:19:52 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 18, 2008 10:19:52 GMT -5
How about we move on and discuss John 6:48-59! I don't think that that's allowed in some circles. Just like James 2:14 isn't allowed or Matthew 16:18. And it's like they've never heard of the Books of Titus or Timothy and Thessalonians is definitely off limits!  |
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John 6
Dec 18, 2008 14:52:18 GMT -5
Post by Reformedalt on Dec 18, 2008 14:52:18 GMT -5
How about we move on and discuss John 6:48-59! No problem. Jesus said that whoever drinks his blood and eats his flesh shall life forever, and he shall raise him up on the last day. Sounds familiar to John 6:39. Thus, whoever drinks his blood and eats his flesh shall have eternal life. No exceptions. |
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John 6
Dec 18, 2008 14:59:40 GMT -5
Post by Reformedalt on Dec 18, 2008 14:59:40 GMT -5
God's graces is what saves. Faith is just belief. But even non-believers are subject to pleasing God and doing His will (remember the Good Samaritan that Jesus used as an example to show so-called believers what they were to do to please God? The Samaritan was not only a non-believer, but also they were enemies of Jews, yet this Good Samaritan was used by Jesus Himself to show that even they could please God and do His will). Pax Paul says that those under the flesh CANNOT subject themselves to the law of God (Romans 8:7-8). It is only those who are in the spirit who can please God. The Samaritan followed this commandment, but according to Paul, he did not truly please God by doing so. As for "saving faith", saving faith is faith which is accompanied by works, yet the difference which separates Protestants and Catholics is the fact that Salvation CANNOT be lost. Those in Christ are a new creature (according to Paul), and those who do not have saving faith are no different than the demons who believe (according to James). This is a great example of the harmony between James and Paul. Paul refers to faith alone (Romans 4), but he defines faith as that which is accompanied by works, but the works do not justify you. James refers to "faith", but compares it to the faith of the demons, and adds works to "Complete faith", which is the Protestant definition of faith. |
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John 6
Dec 18, 2008 16:13:04 GMT -5
Post by cradlecathlic27 on Dec 18, 2008 16:13:04 GMT -5
Is salvation could not be lost...then there would be no hell. Jesus died for all humans, not just some, yet we still havve to keep "his" will and do good works. Salvation can be lost.
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John 6
Dec 18, 2008 17:09:45 GMT -5
Post by Reformedalt on Dec 18, 2008 17:09:45 GMT -5
Is salvation could not be lost...then there would be no hell. Jesus died for all humans, not just some, yet we still havve to keep "his" will and do good works. Salvation can be lost. That doesn't make logical sense. Even if Jesus died for all, faith would still be required for salvation. Not everybody believes, thus Hell would still be burning. So, again, John 6:39 still exists, and Christ's words don't pass away. |
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John 6
Dec 19, 2008 12:10:54 GMT -5
Post by teresahrc on Dec 19, 2008 12:10:54 GMT -5
What does James refer to? Let's simply read James:
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
How can it be more straightforward than this? "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".
If you don't agree with that, then the only other option is to say that the book of James is NOT God's word.
If you want to hold to "sola fide" then you really have a problem with "sola scriptura" because you would need to through out entire books of scripture in order for "faith alone" to be true.
Not to mention the fact that you would have to throw out many things that Jesus himself said (yes, the sheep and goats too).
teresa
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John 6
Dec 19, 2008 12:38:07 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 19, 2008 12:38:07 GMT -5
Is salvation could not be lost...then there would be no hell. Jesus died for all humans, not just some, yet we still havve to keep "his" will and do good works. Salvation can be lost. That doesn't make logical sense. Even if Jesus died for all, faith would still be required for salvation. Not everybody believes, thus Hell would still be burning. So, again, John 6:39 still exists, and Christ's words don't pass away. Actually, faith is not a requirement for Salvation. That only applies to Christians. Read Romans 2 where non-believers are justified to God because they live His law which is written on their hearts. |
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John 6
Dec 19, 2008 12:42:44 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 19, 2008 12:42:44 GMT -5
Is salvation could not be lost...then there would be no hell. Jesus died for all humans, not just some, yet we still havve to keep "his" will and do good works. Salvation can be lost. That doesn't make logical sense. Even if Jesus died for all, faith would still be required for salvation. Not everybody believes, thus Hell would still be burning. So, again, John 6:39 still exists, and Christ's words don't pass away. Wait a minute, are you an OSAS guy? Once saved, always saved? |
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John 6
Dec 19, 2008 12:47:53 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 19, 2008 12:47:53 GMT -5
How about we move on and discuss John 6:48-59! No problem. Jesus said that whoever drinks his blood and eats his flesh shall life forever, and he shall raise him up on the last day. Sounds familiar to John 6:39. Thus, whoever drinks his blood and eats his flesh shall have eternal life. No exceptions. Amen! Can I count you in as an advocate for The Eucharist then?  |
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John 6
Dec 19, 2008 12:50:05 GMT -5
Post by Cepha on Dec 19, 2008 12:50:05 GMT -5
God's graces is what saves. Faith is just belief. But even non-believers are subject to pleasing God and doing His will (remember the Good Samaritan that Jesus used as an example to show so-called believers what they were to do to please God? The Samaritan was not only a non-believer, but also they were enemies of Jews, yet this Good Samaritan was used by Jesus Himself to show that even they could please God and do His will). Pax Paul says that those under the flesh CANNOT subject themselves to the law of God (Romans 8:7-8). It is only those who are in the spirit who can please God. The Samaritan followed this commandment, but according to Paul, he did not truly please God by doing so. As for "saving faith", saving faith is faith which is accompanied by works, yet the difference which separates Protestants and Catholics is the fact that Salvation CANNOT be lost. Those in Christ are a new creature (according to Paul), and those who do not have saving faith are no different than the demons who believe (according to James). This is a great example of the harmony between James and Paul. Paul refers to faith alone (Romans 4), but he defines faith as that which is accompanied by works, but the works do not justify you. James refers to "faith", but compares it to the faith of the demons, and adds works to "Complete faith", which is the Protestant definition of faith. When James mentioned demons, he was stating that even they believed in Jesus, so they weren't saved by their faith. Right? Faith is faith is faith is faith. I never read where there was a distinction between human or demonic faith. Fact is, I never heard a Protestant even say that. To believe in Christ is not valued by who does the believing. |
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