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Post by Cepha on Jan 26, 2009 9:55:09 GMT -5
There's been some talk about denying Communion to Catholics who support(ed) Obama even if they disagreed with him on Abortion and were Pro-Life.
What do you guys think?
Is it right for a Priest to act outside of The Vatican and to deny Catholics Holy Communion who haven't broken and of The Church's laws?
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Post by watchman on Jan 26, 2009 11:45:07 GMT -5
There's been some talk about denying Communion to Catholics who support(ed) Obama even if they disagreed with him on Abortion and were Pro-Life. What do you guys think? Is it right for a Priest to act outside of The Vatican and to deny Catholics Holy Communion who haven't broken and of The Church's laws? I am not catholic, but my personal opinion is no true Christ loving Christian would have supported Obama, so if not being a true Christ loving Christian prohibits you from communion, then it sound appropriate to me.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jan 26, 2009 13:22:33 GMT -5
How about this one.... i heard he might make it a law that every church HAS to perform gay marriages, if not, then noone will be allowed to use the facility. This is an example of something that could happen if one of his laws pass.
The Catholic Church stands against gay marriage. And ABORTION!
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jan 26, 2009 13:27:35 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Jan 27, 2009 14:10:28 GMT -5
I am not catholic, but my personal opinion is no true Christ loving Christian would have supported Obama, so if not being a true Christ loving Christian prohibits you from communion, then it sound appropriate to me. OK. The Church has a set of standards with regards to our voting for candidates and various points to consider. Why would'nt you vote for Obama personally?
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Post by Cepha on Jan 27, 2009 14:42:38 GMT -5
Would The Catholic Church approve of this? Does "this" cause a "moral conflict" for those who voted for and supported McCain? Is "this" The Catholic Church's definition of Pro-Life? JOHN MCCAIN ON ABORTIONMcCain said he had “come to the conclusion that the exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother are legitimate exceptions” to an outright ban on abortions. Source: Boston Globe, p. A9 Jan 31, 2000 “Family Conference” if daughter wanted an abortion KEYES [to McCain]: Source: (X-ref from Keyes) GOP Debate in Manchester NH Jan 26, 2000 Abortion OK if raped; and no testing for rape McCain was asked whether he would reinstate the Reagan era Source: New York Times, p. A17 Jan 25, 2000 Supports fetal tissue research; Source: Boston Globe, p. A11 Jan 22, 2000 Overturn Roe v. Wade, but keep incest & rape exceptions McCain said he thought Roe v. Wade should be overturned and said he would support exceptions to a ban on abortion in cases of rape, incest, and when the mother’s life is in danger. Source: Boston Globe, p. A11 Jan 22, 2000 Wants Roe vs. Wade made irrelevant, but would not repeal it Source: Ron Fournier, Associated Press Aug 24, 1999 Voted YES on allowing partial birth abortions. Status: Bill Passed Y)63; N)34; NV)3 Reference: Partial Birth Abortion Ban; Bill S. 1692 ; vote number 1999-340 on Oct 21, 1999 Full article in detail can be read here with citable 3rd party references: www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_McCain_Abortion.htm DON'T BE FOOLED PEOPLE...JOHN MCCAIN IS NO MORE A FRIEND TO THE UNBORN FETUS THAN PRESIDENT HUSSEIN IS IN MOST CASES. Anyway, he lost big time to a Black Un-American Radical Socialist Terrorist Muslim Homosexual (yeah, that's a new one for me too). So, what does that say about John McCain?
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Post by Cepha on Jan 27, 2009 14:53:15 GMT -5
How about this one.... i heard he might make it a law that every church HAS to perform gay marriages, if not, then noone will be allowed to use the facility. This is an example of something that could happen if one of his laws pass. The Catholic Church stands against gay marriage. And ABORTION! Where'd you hear that? About the gay marriage thing?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jan 27, 2009 15:22:15 GMT -5
I heard it from the guy that talked on Hannity, he is the guy on the LC.ORG site. Go check out the site!
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Post by watchman on Jan 27, 2009 21:11:08 GMT -5
I am not catholic, but my personal opinion is no true Christ loving Christian would have supported Obama, so if not being a true Christ loving Christian prohibits you from communion, then it sound appropriate to me. OK. The Church has a set of standards with regards to our voting for candidates and various points to consider. Why would'nt you vote for Obama personally? I wouldn't vote for anyone that is against true Christianity.
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Post by watchman on Jan 27, 2009 21:12:58 GMT -5
Deflecting Obama's bad actions, beliefs, and decisions by saying McCain is bad too, does not excuse any Christian for supporting Obama
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jan 27, 2009 21:39:39 GMT -5
Watchman, i was thinking the same thing. He is dodging obamas mistakes and playing defense. If cepha is going to talk like a big Christian guy, then he defenitly cant be a true obama fan.
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Post by Cepha on Jan 29, 2009 10:29:48 GMT -5
Deflecting Obama's bad actions, beliefs, and decisions by saying McCain is bad too, does not excuse any Christian for supporting Obama The "official" Catholic Church teaching is that one can support a Candidate on his views that are in line with The Church (unjust war, social justice, charity, world peace, etc...), while being in complete disagreement of his stances that are against The Church. And, it is correct to (as Jesus did) point out a person's own position when they are being judged by that person (Matthew 7 is a great chapter on this). If one is going to judge another person, then they have to expose their own judgements with respect to how their judging the other person (by the way that one judges, so too will that person be judged). Jesus' words, not mine. And I for one agree with Jesus wholeheartedly.
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Post by Cepha on Jan 29, 2009 10:34:39 GMT -5
Watchman, i was thinking the same thing. He is dodging obamas mistakes and playing defense. If cepha is going to talk like a big Christian guy, then he defenitly cant be a true obama fan. Now you are slandering me CC. I never dodged Obama's wrongs and stated clearly that I was against him on those things. You are misrepresenting me. Do you want to prove me wrong so badly that you'd resort to straight out lying about me? Why can't you just deal with facts? There's no need to lie about me or what I beleive or even what I've said (that can easily be proven). Don't put words in my mouth. I never dodged where I believe Obama is wrong. Never. Fact is, the only one's dodging here are you guys. Instead of addressing my questions on McCain's record on abortion, you're the one's dodging them. How come no one's answered them directly? All you've done collectively is complain about the question, but have not addressed McCain's Pro-Choice (anti-Pro-Life) stances that The Catholic Church disagrees with. Yet, you voted for him. So, what does that make you in the eyes of God? I can tell you this, I am no hypocrite. I followed The Church's teachings on voting for a Pro-Life candidate to the letter. How many of you who voted for John McCain feel that you are what you accuse me of being?
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Post by Cepha on Jan 29, 2009 10:35:43 GMT -5
I wouldn't vote for anyone that is against true Christianity. So then, you "didn't" vote for McCain?
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Jan 29, 2009 17:33:31 GMT -5
Watchman, i was thinking the same thing. He is dodging obamas mistakes and playing defense. If cepha is going to talk like a big Christian guy, then he defenitly cant be a true obama fan. Now you are slandering me CC. I never dodged Obama's wrongs and stated clearly that I was against him on those things. You are misrepresenting me. Do you want to prove me wrong so badly that you'd resort to straight out lying about me? Why can't you just deal with facts? There's no need to lie about me or what I beleive or even what I've said (that can easily be proven). Don't put words in my mouth. I never dodged where I believe Obama is wrong. Never. Fact is, the only one's dodging here are you guys. Instead of addressing my questions on McCain's record on abortion, you're the one's dodging them. How come no one's answered them directly? All you've done collectively is complain about the question, but have not addressed McCain's Pro-Choice (anti-Pro-Life) stances that The Catholic Church disagrees with. Yet, you voted for him. So, what does that make you in the eyes of God? I can tell you this, I am no hypocrite. I followed The Church's teachings on voting for a Pro-Life candidate to the letter. How many of you who voted for John McCain feel that you are what you accuse me of being? Not trying to slander you I just notice that no matter what we say about obama, you have to play defense and say something bad about mccain instead of staying on topic. that is what i mean. I have answered your question on mccain, i would never vote for him again. Never will vote for a president again that is willing to fund abortions. Now i know that the president may not be able to make abortions not legal, but i will not knowingly vote for a canadite that supports it.
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Post by Cepha on Jan 30, 2009 11:04:40 GMT -5
Not trying to slander you I just notice that no matter what we say about obama, you have to play defense and say something bad about mccain instead of staying on topic. that is what i mean. I have answered your question on mccain, i would never vote for him again. Never will vote for a president again that is willing to fund abortions. Now i know that the president may not be able to make abortions not legal, but i will not knowingly vote for a canadite that supports it. Well, when you say that I said things that I never said, you are literally slandering me. And yes, I'm going to always say something about McCain when you are using the same standards to pass judgement upon me. Jesus did it to The Pharisees. I do it to ya'll. If you're going to try to judge someone, then be prepared to have your own faults publically exposed too CC. Matthew 7...read it. The only person here who "truly" voted Pro-Life was Teresa. We all voted for Pro-Choice Candidates (at least those that voted for President Obama or Senator McCain). There is not "gray" area when it comes to abortion. There is no "acceptable" circumstances where abortion is ok. It is wrong, always, 101%! I'd rather vote for a man who is truthful on his stance than a man who lies about his stance. Obama was truthful, McCain was deceitful. Just because the "lie" sounds good, it shouldn't be voted for. Any Catholic that voted for McCain knowing his stance on abortions is just as guilty as voting for a pro-abortion candidate as I am. The only difference is that I said it straight out and don't try to hid it and I meet the Church's criteria on voting for such a candidate without violating Church teachings. Any Catholic who voted for either Obama or McCain precisely because they are Pro-Choice are both guilty of violating Church teachings and are directly guilty of supporting abortion! Like I asked before...how many of you Anti-Obamians actually planned like me to go march on Washington, DC to make your voice heard outside of the internet? The only thing that stopped me was not only a responsibility that I had to protect my customer's home from a storm, but also the fact that I had a darn near pnuemonia. I was however set to go down otherwise with my Church.
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Post by kathleenelsie on Feb 7, 2009 11:45:37 GMT -5
OBAMA is not catholic or Catholic. So this is aimed at those that claim to be in union with Rome.
Vatican's Archbishop Burke, No Communion for Catholic Politicians who Support Abortion
By Hilary White 2/5/2009 LifeSiteNews
"A Catholic who publicly, and after admonition, supports pro-abortion legislation is not to receive Holy Communion and is not to be given Holy Communion."
ROME (LifeSiteNews.com) - Archbishop Raymond Burke, in an exclusive interview last week, told LifeSiteNews.com that the issue of pro-abortion politicians continuing to receive Holy Communion is still one of major concern and that it is the duty of bishops to ensure that they are refused.
He told LifeSiteNews.com, "I don't understand the continual debate that goes on about it. There's not a question that a Catholic who publicly, and after admonition, supports pro-abortion legislation is not to receive Holy Communion and is not to be given Holy Communion."
"The Church's law is very clear," said Archbishop Burke, who was appointed last year by Pope Benedict XVI as the head of the Church's highest court, the Apostolic Signatura. "The person who persists publicly in grave sin is to be denied Holy Communion, and it [Canon Law] doesn't say that the bishop shall decide this. It's an absolute." Among the US bishops directly to address the issue, Archbishop Burke was one of around a dozen who vigorously supported a directive of the Vatican that said pro-abortion Catholic politicians "must be refused" Holy Communion if they attempt to receive at Mass. Others have refused to abide by the Vatican instruction and the Church's own Code of Canon Law, saying they would rather focus on "education" of such politicians.
Archbishop Burke called "nonsense" the accusation, regularly made by some bishops, that refusing Holy Communion "makes the Communion rail a [political] battle ground". In fact, he said, the precise opposite is true. The politician who insists on being seen receiving Holy Communion, despite his opposition to the Church's central teachings, is using that reception for political leverage.
In 2004, when self-proclaimed Catholic and candidate for the Democrat party, Sen. John Kerry, was frequently photographed receiving Holy Communion despite his vigorous support of abortion, the US Bishops Conference issued a document which said only that it is up to individual bishops whether to implement the Church's code of Canon Law and refuse Communion. The issue has remained prominent with the appointment of Joe Biden, another pro-abortion Catholic politician, as Vice President of the United States of America.
Archbishop Burke recalled previous experiences with Kerry, pointing to the several occasions when the senator was pictured in Time magazine receiving Communion from Papal representatives at various public events. Burke said that it is clear that Kerry was using his reception of Holy Communion to send a message.
"He wants to not only receive Holy Communion from a bishop but from the papal representative. I think that's what his point was. Get it in Time magazine, so people read it and say to themselves, 'He must be in good standing'."
"What are they doing? They're using the Eucharist as a political tool."
In refusing, far from politicising the Eucharist, the Church is returning the matter to its religious reality. The most important reasons to refuse, he said, are pastoral and religious in nature.
"The Holy Eucharist, the most sacred reality of our life in the Church, has to be protected against sacrilege. At the same time, individuals have to be protected for the sake of their own salvation from committing one of the gravest sins, namely to receive Holy Communion unworthily."
Archbishop Burke also dismissed the commonly proffered excuse that such politicians need more "education". Speaking from his own direct experience, he said that Catholic politicians who are informed by their pastors or bishops that their positions in support of pro-abortion legislation makes it impossible for them to receive Holy Communion, "I've always found that they don't come forward."
"When you talk to these people, they know," he said. "They know what they're doing is very wrong. They have to answer to God for that, but why through our pastoral negligence add on to that, that they have to answer to God for who knows how many unworthy receptions of Holy Communion?"
Archbishop Burke said that the issue had been debated enough. He rejected the idea that the matter should be left to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, saying the Conference has no authority in the matter. "This is a law of the universal Church and it should be applied."
"I think this argument too is being used by people who don't want to confront the issue, this whole 'wait 'til the Conference decides'...well the Conference has been discussing this since at least 2004. And nothing happens."
When asked what the solution was, he responded, "Individual bishops and priests simply have to do their duty. They have to confront politicians, Catholic politicians, who are sinning gravely and publicly in this regard. And that's their duty.
"And if they carry it out, not only can they not be reproached for that, but they should be praised for confronting this situation."
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Post by kathleenelsie on Feb 7, 2009 11:54:56 GMT -5
I don't think Cepha is for the current POTUS. At least not like most people think being for a person is. In his posts I have noticed he used only the middle name that Mr Obama only uses on formal papers because it is his legal middle name. IMHO Cepha is against anything conservative and past administrations. So again IMHO I believe that he is reacting to an emotion and not logic. But as I said it is my opinion.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 7, 2009 14:07:17 GMT -5
I don't think Cepha is for the current POTUS. At least not like most people think being for a person is. In his posts I have noticed he used only the middle name that Mr Obama only uses on formal papers because it is his legal middle name. IMHO Cepha is against anything conservative and past administrations. So again IMHO I believe that he is reacting to an emotion and not logic. But as I said it is my opinion. Well, I'm definitely against Conservative corrupt politicians and homosexual child predators. I'm against Conservative "take from the poor and give to the rich" principles called "trickle down economics". I'm against Conservative personal judgement of people. Their just so Anti-Christian with ther practices (taking funds from social programs to fund "unjust" wars and such...). As for being for President Hussein? I love the man. I pray for him. He is a good President. He will be a great President.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 7, 2009 14:08:54 GMT -5
OBAMA is not catholic or Catholic. So this is aimed at those that claim to be in union with Rome. Vatican's Archbishop Burke, No Communion for Catholic Politicians who Support Abortion
By Hilary White 2/5/2009 LifeSiteNews
"A Catholic who publicly, and after admonition, supports pro-abortion legislation is not to receive Holy Communion and is not to be given Holy Communion."
ROME (LifeSiteNews.com) - Archbishop Raymond Burke, in an exclusive interview last week, told LifeSiteNews.com that the issue of pro-abortion politicians continuing to receive Holy Communion is still one of major concern and that it is the duty of bishops to ensure that they are refused.
He told LifeSiteNews.com, "I don't understand the continual debate that goes on about it. There's not a question that a Catholic who publicly, and after admonition, supports pro-abortion legislation is not to receive Holy Communion and is not to be given Holy Communion."
"The Church's law is very clear," said Archbishop Burke, who was appointed last year by Pope Benedict XVI as the head of the Church's highest court, the Apostolic Signatura. "The person who persists publicly in grave sin is to be denied Holy Communion, and it [Canon Law] doesn't say that the bishop shall decide this. It's an absolute." Among the US bishops directly to address the issue, Archbishop Burke was one of around a dozen who vigorously supported a directive of the Vatican that said pro-abortion Catholic politicians "must be refused" Holy Communion if they attempt to receive at Mass. Others have refused to abide by the Vatican instruction and the Church's own Code of Canon Law, saying they would rather focus on "education" of such politicians.
Archbishop Burke called "nonsense" the accusation, regularly made by some bishops, that refusing Holy Communion "makes the Communion rail a [political] battle ground". In fact, he said, the precise opposite is true. The politician who insists on being seen receiving Holy Communion, despite his opposition to the Church's central teachings, is using that reception for political leverage.
In 2004, when self-proclaimed Catholic and candidate for the Democrat party, Sen. John Kerry, was frequently photographed receiving Holy Communion despite his vigorous support of abortion, the US Bishops Conference issued a document which said only that it is up to individual bishops whether to implement the Church's code of Canon Law and refuse Communion. The issue has remained prominent with the appointment of Joe Biden, another pro-abortion Catholic politician, as Vice President of the United States of America.
Archbishop Burke recalled previous experiences with Kerry, pointing to the several occasions when the senator was pictured in Time magazine receiving Communion from Papal representatives at various public events. Burke said that it is clear that Kerry was using his reception of Holy Communion to send a message.
"He wants to not only receive Holy Communion from a bishop but from the papal representative. I think that's what his point was. Get it in Time magazine, so people read it and say to themselves, 'He must be in good standing'."
"What are they doing? They're using the Eucharist as a political tool."
In refusing, far from politicising the Eucharist, the Church is returning the matter to its religious reality. The most important reasons to refuse, he said, are pastoral and religious in nature.
"The Holy Eucharist, the most sacred reality of our life in the Church, has to be protected against sacrilege. At the same time, individuals have to be protected for the sake of their own salvation from committing one of the gravest sins, namely to receive Holy Communion unworthily."
Archbishop Burke also dismissed the commonly proffered excuse that such politicians need more "education". Speaking from his own direct experience, he said that Catholic politicians who are informed by their pastors or bishops that their positions in support of pro-abortion legislation makes it impossible for them to receive Holy Communion, "I've always found that they don't come forward."
"When you talk to these people, they know," he said. "They know what they're doing is very wrong. They have to answer to God for that, but why through our pastoral negligence add on to that, that they have to answer to God for who knows how many unworthy receptions of Holy Communion?"
Archbishop Burke said that the issue had been debated enough. He rejected the idea that the matter should be left to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, saying the Conference has no authority in the matter. "This is a law of the universal Church and it should be applied."
"I think this argument too is being used by people who don't want to confront the issue, this whole 'wait 'til the Conference decides'...well the Conference has been discussing this since at least 2004. And nothing happens."
When asked what the solution was, he responded, "Individual bishops and priests simply have to do their duty. They have to confront politicians, Catholic politicians, who are sinning gravely and publicly in this regard. And that's their duty.
"And if they carry it out, not only can they not be reproached for that, but they should be praised for confronting this situation." Yeah? And? Nobody denies that Pro-Choice Catholics shouldn't receive communion. Point? You're preaching to the choir on this forum here. ;D
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