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Post by Cepha on Feb 1, 2009 16:28:21 GMT -5
Can you still call yourself Pro-Life if you believe in abortion for rape, incest or for the health of the woman and if you believe in embryonic stem cell research?  And if you vote for a Presidential Candidate that believes in this, then are you culpable of his sinful stance even if you don't believe in it? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 1, 2009 23:35:50 GMT -5
ok, im not going to vote, but only if the mother will die if she continues with the pregnancy, then i will say it is ok. Now, that is if she is before like 2 months prego. I know it may sound like im putting time on a life, but im not really, sometimes you have to make hard choices in life and this is DEFINETLY one of them.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 2, 2009 15:22:58 GMT -5
ok, im not going to vote, but only if the mother will die if she continues with the pregnancy, then i will say it is ok. Now, that is if she is before like 2 months prego. I know it may sound like im putting time on a life, but im not really, sometimes you have to make hard choices in life and this is DEFINETLY one of them. Well then, you are officially "Pro-Choice" in that matter. Definitely against what The Catholic Church teaches. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 3, 2009 19:35:40 GMT -5
Can you still call yourself Pro-Life if you believe in abortion for rape, incest or
for the health of the woman and if you believe in embryonic stem cell research?
And if you are a Catholic and vote for a Presidential Candidate that believes in this,
then are you culpable of his sinful stance even if you don't believe in it?
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Post by Cepha on Feb 3, 2009 19:36:43 GMT -5
ok, im not going to vote, but only if the mother will die if she continues with the pregnancy, then i will say it is ok. Now, that is if she is before like 2 months prego. I know it may sound like im putting time on a life, but im not really, sometimes you have to make hard choices in life and this is DEFINETLY one of them. CC, Do you consider your self Pro-Choice? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 3, 2009 20:12:07 GMT -5
Well, i know that if i got pregnant, and it was not a normal pregnancy and would kill me to continue with it, yes i would have the abortion. Sometimes, pregnancy does not happen right, like tubal pregnancys and so on. Im not for killing babies for whatever reasons, just for life or death reasons. Yes i AM pro-choice. Proud of it too!
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Post by Cepha on Feb 3, 2009 20:30:37 GMT -5
Well, i know that if i got pregnant, and it was not a normal pregnancy and would kill me to continue with it, yes i would have the abortion. Sometimes, pregnancy does not happen right, like tubal pregnancys and so on. Im not for killing babies for whatever reasons, just for life or death reasons. Yes i AM pro-choice. Proud of it too! Well, at least you voted Republican so I'm sure "some" will forgive you like they forgave McCain and gave him their vote. ;D But honestly, I won't call you a "confused Catholic" just because you're Pro-Choice. That's God's judgement call. You know I still love you sweetie! And to be honest, I can't believe in my heart that you'd have an abortion. Honestly, when it comes down to it, I think you'd risk your life for your child.  |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 3, 2009 21:45:46 GMT -5
Well, cepha your not a women, so i would not expect you to understand, but a tubal pregnancy cannot make it through term, so it would die anyway. But it could be harmfull or deadly to the mother if it stayed in there and grew. I am PRO- LIFE thanks for your opinon though.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 3, 2009 22:41:08 GMT -5
Well, cepha your not a women, so i would not expect you to understand, but a tubal pregnancy cannot make it through term, so it would die anyway. But it could be harmfull or deadly to the mother if it stayed in there and grew. I am PRO- LIFE thanks for your opinon though. So you're Pro-Choice "and" Pro-Life? You must've voted for John McCain!  And, if by my giving up my life I could save my children's, I'd do it in a second without thinking about it. That has nothing to do with my Catholicism, but with my personal nature. The thing about being Pro-Life, is that you're supposed to be Pro-Life for someone other than yourself.  You don't fit "my personal" definition of being Pro-Life, but I still will not judge you for that personally. Do you consider yourself in line with Catholic teachings regarding Pro-Life issues with your "choice" to live over your child's (hypothetically speaking)? You can't be Catholic and be Pro-Choice. You said you're Pro-Choice in certain matters, right? This isn't my personal opinion, but The Church's teaching. The two just don't go together. I'll never support anything that is Pro-Choice. I can vote for a man that is Pro-Choice so long as I followed Mother Church's guidelines, but I won't ever support his stance. I'm sure both McCain and Obama would support your position on your choice, but guess what...neither of them are Catholic, so that's expected. Anyway, I still don't believe you CC! I think you'd take the chance and save your baby. You could tell me that I'm wrong, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 4, 2009 0:26:14 GMT -5
I would never get an abortionn or tell someone to. That is why i am pro life. Now like i said, if i had a tubal pregnancy, most likely it would be aborted on its own or would have to have it removed. Its just one of those things that could happen, its life. Here maybe you should read up on it so you can see where im coming from... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy |
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Post by watchman on Feb 4, 2009 12:01:16 GMT -5
Well, i know that if i got pregnant, and it was not a normal pregnancy and would kill me to continue with it, yes i would have the abortion. Sometimes, pregnancy does not happen right, like tubal pregnancys and so on. Im not for killing babies for whatever reasons, just for life or death reasons. Yes i AM pro-choice. Proud of it too! Well, at least you voted Republican so I'm sure "some" will forgive you like they forgave McCain and gave him their vote. ;D But honestly, I won't call you a "confused Catholic" just because you're Pro-Choice. That's God's judgement call. You know I still love you sweetie! And to be honest, I can't believe in my heart that you'd have an abortion. Honestly, when it comes down to it, I think you'd risk your life for your child. Did you vote for Obama, who now wants to us U.S. tax dollars to kill babies all over the world? Are you guilty of his sins, because they are many? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 4, 2009 20:44:05 GMT -5
Did you vote for Obama, who now wants to us U.S. tax dollars to kill babies all over the world? Are you guilty of his sins, because they are many? Yes. Yes I did. And no, I'm not guilty of his sins. Each man is acountable for his own sins. (Unless someone changed The Holy Bible since I last read it) Did you vote for McCain who wants to protect a woman's right to kill children? Would tha make you guilty of his sins, because there are many? And, would it be ok if he didn't want to use tax funds to do it? |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 4, 2009 20:57:11 GMT -5
I would never get an abortionn or tell someone to. That is why i am pro life. Pro-Life: To "not" murder an uborn child under any circumstance. There is a precedure to remove the damaged tube while preserving the life of the unborn baby. CC: To "murder" an unborn child if her (CC's) health is at risk and the child has little chance of surviving. Catholic Church Teaching: Abortion in cases of Tubal Pregnancies are forbidden. It is never acceptable to murder an unborn child. Do you still believe that it is ok to murder an unborn child to spare the life of the woman? Since we're not Wikipedians, as Catholics, let's see what The Church teaching is on what you say is ok with you... (By the way, didn't you refer to yourself as "Pro-Choice" before in certain matters? Can you be both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life at the same time?) |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 4, 2009 21:20:21 GMT -5
When did i say i was for killing babies in certain cases?
Source please for the abortion in tubal pregnancy to be forbidden
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Post by Cepha on Feb 4, 2009 21:28:32 GMT -5
When did i say i was for killing babies in certain cases? Source please for the abortion in tubal pregnancy to be forbidden Check the links I posted from Catholic Answers Forum which cite Church teachings. |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 4, 2009 21:31:10 GMT -5
So would you say that this girl/woman is Pro-choice?
July 6, 1999 was one of the hardest days in my life. I found out that my baby would not live another day. The pregnancy began with a surprise and a bit of worry and then grew into confusion and in the end resulted in giving her up. In the course of the six weeks, I actually was praying I was having a normal pregnancy, I petitioned God to please not let my baby die. I still had not fully grasped though the end results of an ectopic pregnancy.
July 6th came and my husband and I went to the hospital. Our perfectly formed baby was at 6 weeks. gestation and for reasons unknown had implanted in my right fallopian tube. I had 2 hours to grapple with the decision of ending my baby's life to save mine. I bought a tiny little angel in a praying stance at the gift shop along with a one decade pink rosary and a card. My husband and I wrote love notes to our baby and then we went to the chapel to pray and offer our child to Jesus through Mary. We got some holy water for the nurse to Baptize the baby after removal. As I was waiting to go into the operating room, I could not stop grieving for a baby who was about to die. I immediately felt an immense canyon between me not wanting to end the life of this precious gift and a mother who willingly walks into a clinic to end her baby's life in the name of choice. I had no choice, my baby was going to die. My Catholic doctor reassured me going in that there was nothing else I could do. He visibly was touched at such an immense feeling that I already had for this child. I woke up and she was gone. My right fallopian tube had been cut out and the effect of that was the loss of our baby girl.
Everything went "o.k." in the surgery. They had also found a cyst on my left ovary that had ruptured. The Dr. knew we were planning on having future children and did his best to preserve my fertility on that side. I am "recovering" as best as anyone can in this type of situation.
I share my story to help me in healing but also to try to communicate to those of you who have never experienced the loss of a baby and those of you who have.
Those of you who haven't lost a baby, I understand your non-understanding. It's one of those things that you can say "I just don't know how you feel." That is ok. I felt the same way when I had previously heard of friends who lost babies to miscarriage. I always said "that must be terribly hard to deal with." And now I can say. "Yes, it is." I do want to talk about what happened. I do want you to remember my baby.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Feb 4, 2009 21:34:26 GMT -5
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Post by Cepha on Feb 4, 2009 22:00:55 GMT -5
Not one of those references cited in that article cite an actual church document. Did you notice that? Here's what the Catechism of The Catholic Church says about destroying an innocent fetus... Again, there are ways to save the mother while sparing the child. There is no excuse ever to kill an innocent life. That article you posted attached the concept of self defense to an unborn baby comparing it to an aggresive attacker on the mother forcing the mother to murder the baby in self defense. There is never a situation where an innocent child can be murdered. CCC 2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: 'Do not slay the innocent and the righteous.' (61) The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.Now, the quotes cited in your reference are attaching CCC's passages to a belief that no one knew about back when the CCC (Catechism) was written. They didn't cite one Church teaching on the matter of tubal pregnancy. Here are the sources they themselves cited (note, not one Vatican document or official teaching on the matter): [1] Much of the statistical information in this Faith Fact was gathered from the CDC
[2] National Conference of Catholic Bishops. Ethical and Religious Directives for Health Care Services (Washington, DC: NCCB, 1994), 28
[3] Ibid., 47.
[4] Cf. William E. May, Catholic Bioethics and the Gift of Human Life (Huntington, IN: Our Sunday Visitor, Inc., 2000), 182-83.
[5] T. Lincoln Bouscaren, Ethics of Ectopic Operations (Chicago, IL: Loyola University Press, 1933).
[6] Ibid., 160-61. |
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Post by watchman on Feb 4, 2009 22:16:25 GMT -5
Did you vote for Obama, who now wants to us U.S. tax dollars to kill babies all over the world? Are you guilty of his sins, because they are many? Yes. Yes I did. And no, I'm not guilty of his sins. Each man is acountable for his own sins. (Unless someone changed The Holy Bible since I last read it) Did you vote for McCain who wants to protect a woman's right to kill children? Would tha make you guilty of his sins, because there are many? And, would it be ok if he didn't want to use tax funds to do it? Nope I did not vote for McCain, and I definitely didn't vote for that baby murdering Obama. |
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Post by capitalista on Feb 4, 2009 22:26:49 GMT -5
Cepha,
Is there a difference between someone who tells a white lie, and someone who is a habitual liar and con-man?
Is there a difference between a young man who has sex with his 17 1/2 yr old girlfriend and a man who creates child porn?
etc etc etc... I can come up with a million of these scenarios.
In the end, telling a white lie to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions is always wrong, and having sex with a minor is always illegal... but I think we should be able to agree that lifelong con-men and child porn creators are just that much much worse!
If you want to make the case that McCain is pro-choice because he was lax on rape and incest... fine... call it whatever you want. The thing is, you are still missing the point. If McCain had ran against someone who was against abortion in ANY situation, then I would respect your decision to choose that person, but since he ran against a candidate who is aggressively trying to usher in more abortions, make them easier, make them free, etc.... you just come across as a man grasping for straws in an attempt to defend their vote.
In the end, it doesn't matter if McCain can be technically classified as pro-choice by the strictest sense of the term. What matters is his presidency would have sought to reduce, albeit through modest measures, to reduce abortions, and prevent an increase in abortion rights and practices. Obama's presidency, on the other hand, promises to uphold at all costs the women's right to abortions on demand. Big difference there.
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