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Post by Cepha on Feb 5, 2009 10:24:10 GMT -5
"Everything can change."===========================================Obama has expressed renewed opposition to the possibility of war in Iraq, saying the use of military force had to be the "very last option". He said war was "always a defeat for humanity", and called instead for more diplomacy and dialogue. War cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option. "War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations," he said. The BBC's David Willey in Rome says The White House clearly does not consider that America's planned offensive to topple Saddam Hussein meets the conditions of a "just war". The Senator appears to be signalling the start of a new diplomatic rift with the US - a repeat of the one which broke out over the Gulf War in 1991, analysts say. Moral legitimacy "War cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions," Obama said. He spoke of the Iraqis as a people already sorely tried by 12 years of international embargoes - and he described Iraq as the land of the prophets, because it is believed to be the birthplace of the biblical prophet Abraham. Iraqis have endured 12 years of embargoes Those behind a war in Iraq would have to consider "the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations," he said. During the Gulf War, relations between the Senator and the White House were strained because the Senator refused to state unequivocally that the conflict was a "just" one. The Senator states that for a war to be "just", the use of military force should meet rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. It also says that all other means must first be exhausted, and that the type of force used must be proportionate to the wrong it tries to rectify. Potential for change The Senator also used Monday's address to speak of the troubles affecting the Middle East, Venezuela, Ivory Coast and other parts of Africa. However, he also struck a note of optimism. "Everything can change. It depends on each of us. Everyone can develop within himself his potential for faith, for honesty, for respect of others and for commitment to the service of others," he said. ==============================================Look at what he said even wayyy back then..."Everything can change." And now, with regards to our policy on The Iraqi War...things are going to change just as it was suggested way back then. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2654109.stm
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Post by Cepha on Feb 5, 2009 10:25:09 GMT -5
 So, how many of you "Pro-Iraqi War" Catholics are capable of accepting these words?
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Post by kathleenelsie on Feb 5, 2009 16:01:40 GMT -5
The late Pope John Paul II warned before the invasion of Iraq that "war is always a defeat for humanity." It's impossible to calculate the damage done by war to the human spirit. As faithful citizens, we continue to seek justice that is the foundation of all peace. Speaking in a triumphalist tone that divided the world into good and evil, President Bush described the "war on terror" as a "crusade." We have learned again during this dark era of fear and militarism that religion used in the service of power – the uniting of cross and sword – is a betrayal of faith's prophetic spirit and call to humility.
Pope John Pauld was the one that used these words. BHO tends to borrow from many statesmen and popes without giving them credit for the origional statement.
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Post by Cepha on Feb 5, 2009 22:21:46 GMT -5
The late Pope John Paul II warned before the invasion of Iraq that "war is always a defeat for humanity." It's impossible to calculate the damage done by war to the human spirit. As faithful citizens, we continue to seek justice that is the foundation of all peace. Speaking in a triumphalist tone that divided the world into good and evil, President Bush described the "war on terror" as a "crusade." We have learned again during this dark era of fear and militarism that religion used in the service of power – the uniting of cross and sword – is a betrayal of faith's prophetic spirit and call to humility.Pope John Pauld was the one that used these words. BHO tends to borrow from many statesmen and popes without giving them credit for the origional statement. Actually, I took that article and substituted PJP's names/titles for President Hussein's! Now, do you agree with those words of PJP's or not? Because we certainly know that President Hussein does. (PS...I even provided the link to where I got the text from) |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 5, 2009 22:24:27 GMT -5
Oh yeah...and it was PJPII who said that "Everything can change. It depends on each of us. Everyone can develop within himself his potential for faith, for honesty, for respect of others and for commitment to the service of others," he said. And as usual, The Pope was right! It certainly did...  |
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Post by kathleenelsie on Feb 5, 2009 23:16:36 GMT -5
The late Pope John Paul II warned before the invasion of Iraq that "war is always a defeat for humanity." It's impossible to calculate the damage done by war to the human spirit. As faithful citizens, we continue to seek justice that is the foundation of all peace. Speaking in a triumphalist tone that divided the world into good and evil, President Bush described the "war on terror" as a "crusade." We have learned again during this dark era of fear and militarism that religion used in the service of power – the uniting of cross and sword – is a betrayal of faith's prophetic spirit and call to humility.Pope John Pauld was the one that used these words. BHO tends to borrow from many statesmen and popes without giving them credit for the origional statement. Actually, I took that article and substituted PJP's names/titles for President Hussein's! Now, do you agree with those words of PJP's or not? Because we certainly know that President Hussein does. (PS...I even provided the link to where I got the text from) I can agree that history will tell us if the war was just or not. I can agree that BHO spoke the words not hat he agrees with them. As his first act of business was against the life of the unborn not against war. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 5, 2009 23:23:11 GMT -5
Actually, I took that article and substituted PJP's names/titles for President Hussein's! Now, do you agree with those words of PJP's or not? Because we certainly know that President Hussein does. (PS...I even provided the link to where I got the text from) I can agree that history will tell us if the war was just or not. I can agree that BHO spoke the words not hat he agrees with them. As his first act of business was against the life of the unborn not against war. Oh...so you just can't accept The Pope's words for it? The Catholic Church's statements just ain't enough for you? Bend your mind to the Church, not The Church to your mind. Now, let's see just how closely President Hussein and The Pope were on this matter...
Against Going to War with Iraq (2002)
by Barack Obama Delivered on Wednesday, October 2, 2002 by Barack Obama, Illinois State Senator, at the first high-profile Chicago anti-Iraq war rally (organized by Chicagoans Against War in Iraq) at noon in Federal Plaza in Chicago, Illinois; at the same day and hour that President Bush and Congress announced their agreement on the joint resolution authorizing the Iraq War, but over a week before it was passed by either body of Congress. Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.
The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don’t oppose all wars.
My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton’s army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain.
I don’t oppose all wars.
After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this Administration’s pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.
I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.
What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income — to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.
That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.
Now let me be clear — I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.
He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.
But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.
I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.
So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.
Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance, corruption and greed, poverty and despair.
The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not — we will not — travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain. |
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Post by Cepha on Feb 5, 2009 23:24:55 GMT -5
Pope’s Emissary Meets With Bush, Calls War ‘Unjust’ By Johanna Neuman March 06, 2003 in print edition A-13 Laghi, 80 years old and retired from the Vatican, said after his meeting with Bush that a war would be “illegal and unjust,” but stopped short of calling it immoral. In a news conference at the National Press Club, he also said the United States had an obligation to seek the blessings of the United Nations. articles.latimes.com/2003/mar/06/nation/na-vatican6 |
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Post by kathleenelsie on Feb 6, 2009 14:58:00 GMT -5
Again I ask for an official paper that states the war is/was unjust. It might well be declared unjust in the future. Or it might not be.
But, Pope John Paul II and Papa B have given their opinions that it is unjustified. Yet there has been no formal declaration that it is unjust. Both stated that we were morally obligated to stay and fix the situation not leave a mess for others to clean up.
Both Popes also took the UN to task for their inaction in the situation.
Now if you will take what the two popes said about there being NO issue or combined issues that outweigh abortion. I will acknowledge that this war was not well thought out and is not supported by Holy Mother Church. Laghi did not declare it was un-just he delcared that it was un-justified two totally different things. " Laghi was trying to prevent what he said was a morally and legally unjustified invasion.
Laghi, who had been friendly with the Bush family, delivered a letter from John Paul and pressed Bush on whether he was doing everything to avert war.
"You might start and you don't know how to end it," Laghi said at the time.
Now the fact is that we don't know how to end it. Yet it has been declared our responsibility to do so fairly.
You see if we take personal statements on one issue and discard the other you then are choosing what you want to believe.
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