Purgatory: Cepha VS Ezekiel33

[Cepha]

Debate of biblical proof of Purgatory in The Holy Bible.

Let the two parties each use one post to state their position and then alternating posts to follow up their positions.


I, as the host will yield the thread to EZ to state his position.
I will then post my position and proofs of my position.

[ezekiel33]

My position is that it does not exist, and that the onus to prove that it does falls on the person making the extra biblical claim....sooo here some rope, go ahead give it your best shot.

[Cepha]

Apr 8, 2009 21:54:46 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

My position is that it does not exist, and that the onus to prove that it does falls on the person making the extra biblical claim....sooo here some rope, go ahead give it your best shot.

Purgatory:

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm


Now, because not all sin leads to death, but no one who is in sin can enter heaven what happens to those who die with venial sin?

They cannot get into heaven, yet, their sin doesn't warrant hell (death).

So, my first question to you is what does God do with those souls who's state of sin does not lead to death (hell)?

Remembering that something doesn't have to be literally named for it to be considered a biblical belief, let us establish now that the word "purgatory" doesn't have to appear in The Holy Bible for us to be open to the belief that it can exist. If this is not acceptable to you, then you cannot believe in the following Christian beliefs who's titles also don't exist in The Holy Bible literally:

1. Holy Trinity
2. Rapture
3. Holy Bible

[ezekiel33]

I do no deny that a teaching such as the rapture can be given an extra biblical name, yet the teaching itself can still be completely biblical. However this is not the case with purgatory. When a man dies he either goes to Heaven or Hell. If you have biblical proof for the teaching of purgatory please do not refrain from giving it.

[Cepha]

Apr 8, 2009 22:24:42 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

I do no deny that a teaching such as the rapture can be given an extra biblical name, yet the teaching itself can still be completely biblical. However this is not the case with purgatory.

Then you have a double standard for things that you believe in, but not in things that you don't believe in? Ok, let me not get off the subject...OK, so you admit that something doesn't have to be named in The Bible for it to be believed (whether or not Purgatory can or cannot be one of those things is yet to be determined so it cannot be eliminated because the debate isn't over yet).

Good.

When a man dies he either goes to Heaven or Hell. If you have biblical proof for the teaching of purgatory please do not refrain from giving it.

That's fine, but in a debate, it's not "post the scripture" and that's it. In a debate (if you read the rules), the participants have the ability to build a case for their belief and the person contering that person can also build their case.

That way, something isn't won or lost on just "because I say so", but is decided upon the evidence provided.

And, I am proving it...one step at a time. Again, in your own acknowledgement that The Rapture cannot be found in The Bible as a phrase, one would have to literally "spell it out" and use scripture to prove it, but the doctrine itself is not taught in The Bible. It was created by man and uses The Bible as the basis for such a belief. Now, before this turns into a Rapture is true or false debate, let's not dwell on, but on the fact that it is believed by some Christians, yet isn't in The Bible (again, a foundation for this debate with regards to Purgatory).


Now, you say that "When a man dies he either goes to Heaven or Hell." But you provide no scripture that states that Heaven and Hell are the only places that man goes to.

If you do, you can provide that now or provide scripture that states that there is no other destination for man but places called Heaven and Hell.

Of course, you don't have to post one scritpure to prove it, but also are allowed to present and develop you case.

Question:
If a soul dies in a state of venial sin, where does it go?

(Note: You may ask me questions also)





NOTE: EMILY'S POST AND ANY REFERENCES TO THEM HAVE BEEN DELETED AS IN A DEBATE, ONLY THE TWO PARTICIPANTS ARE ALLOWED TO POST IN ORDER TO KEEP THE THREAD FOCUSED ON THE EXCHANGE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES INVOLED.

[ezekiel33]

If the teaching of purgatory is found in scripture, I will believe it, whether scripture calls it purgatory or not. You can build your case for as long as you want, but the only way you will convince me is by showing me the teaching via scripture.

[Cepha]

Apr 8, 2009 22:43:36 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

If the teaching of purgatory is found in scripture, I will believe it, whether scripture calls it purgatory or not. You can build your case for as long as you want, but the only way you will convince me is by showing me the teaching via scripture.

Ok, but you didn't answer this question (which is a rule that you must answer all questions posed to you).

Question:
If a soul dies in a state of venial sin, where does it go?

[ezekiel33]

Apr 8, 2009 22:38:43 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Question:
If a soul dies in a state of venial sin, where does it go?

(Note: You may ask me questions also)

Sin is sin as far as I am concerned. If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven. However if someone calls themself a christian and is living in habitual unrepentant sin, if they die they will go to hell

[Cepha]

Apr 8, 2009 22:49:46 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

Sin is sin as far as I am concerned.

Well, The Holy Bible teaches different than what you believe.
Not all sin is deadly sin. Some is venial sin (sin that does not lead to death).

Take this scripture for example where Paul asks for intercessory prayer for person who sin venially (sin that doesn't lead to death):

1 John 5:16
“If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death,
you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death,
and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it.”




Question:
So, since this person's sin doesn't lead to death and we know that a person who has sin cannot enter heaven, where do they go if not hell (death) or heaven (eternal life)?

If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven.

Question:
Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief?

(I believe that if you sin a deadly sin, you go to Hell.
An unrepentant sinner (deadly sin) cannot ever enter heaven because the Bible teaches this.)

[ezekiel33]

Apr 8, 2009 22:59:10 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 8, 2009 22:49:46 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

Sin is sin as far as I am concerned.

Well, The Holy Bible teaches different than what you believe.
Not all sin is deadly sin. Some is venial sin (sin that does not lead to death).

Take this scripture for example where Paul asks for intercessory prayer for person who sin venially (sin that doesn't lead to death):

1 John 5:16
“If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it.”




Question:
So, since this person's sin doesn't lead to death and we know that a person who has sin cannot enter heaven, where do they go if not hell (death) or heaven (eternal life)?

If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven.

Question:
Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief?

(I believe that if you sin a deadly sin, you go to Hell.
An unrepentant sinner (deadly sin) cannot ever enter heaven because the Bible teaches this.)

Well if there sin did not lead to death then they are not dead so they will still be here on earth.

[ezekiel33]

Apr 8, 2009 22:59:10 GMT -5 Cepha said:

If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven.

Question:
Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief?

(I believe that if you sin a deadly sin, you go to Hell.
An unrepentant sinner (deadly sin) cannot ever enter heaven because the Bible teaches this.)

Someone who dies in a relationship with God may not be perfect but they are not an unrepentant sinner. I agree all unrepentant sinners go to Hell.

[Cepha]

Apr 8, 2009 23:01:52 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

Well if there sin did not lead to death then they are not dead so they will still be here on earth.

Question:
In other words, this is not mortal sin (mortal sin)?

Question:
Do you recognize that there are two kinds of sin; (mortal) sin that leads to death and (venial) sin that does not lead to death?

Question:
If a person dies in venial sin, do they go to heaven or to hell?

Question:
If a person doesn't go to hell in venial sin (because their sin is not sin that leads to death) and they cannot get into heaven (because their sin still is sin and no one who has sin can enter heaven), then where do they go?

Quote:If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven.



Question:
Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief?

You missed this question: "Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief? "

Someone who dies in a relationship with God may not be perfect but they are not an unrepentant sinner. I agree all unrepentant sinners go to Hell.

Question:
So if the sinned but didn't repent, they can still go into Heaven "if" they are in a relationship with God?

[ezekiel33]

Apr 8, 2009 23:08:27 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 8, 2009 23:01:52 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

Well if there sin did not lead to death then they are not dead so they will still be here on earth.

Question:
In other words, this is not mortal sin (mortal sin)?

Question:
Do you recognize that there are two kinds of sin; (mortal) sin that leads to death and (venial) sin that does not lead to death?

Question:
If a person dies in venial sin, do they go to heaven or to hell?

Question:
If a person doesn't go to hell in venial sin (because their sin is not sin that leads to death) and they cannot get into heaven (because their sin still is sin and no one who has sin can enter heaven), then where do they go?

The sin that leads to death is a conscience decision to turn their back on God and their salvation. They go to hell, people who have not comitted this sin have their time to repent.

Apr 8, 2009 23:08:27 GMT -5 Cepha said:

You missed this question: "Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief? "

Someone who dies in a relationship with God may not be perfect but they are not an unrepentant sinner. I agree all unrepentant sinners go to Hell.

Hebrews 9:27

Apr 8, 2009 23:08:27 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Question:
So if the sinned but didn't repent, they can still go into Heaven "if" they are in a relationship with God?

Yes, especially if it was not a willful transgression

[Cepha]

Apr 8, 2009 23:10:44 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

Apr 8, 2009 23:08:27 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Question:
In other words, this is not mortal sin (mortal sin)?

The sin that leads to death is a conscience decision to turn their back on God and their salvation. They go to hell, people who have not comitted this sin have their time to repent.

Ok, but you didn't answer these questions:

Question:
Do you recognize that there are two kinds of sin; (mortal) sin that leads to death and (venial) sin that does not lead to death?

Question:
If a person dies in venial sin, do they go to heaven or to hell?

Question:
If a person doesn't go to hell in venial sin (because their sin is not sin that leads to death) and they cannot get into heaven (because their sin still is sin and no one who has sin can enter heaven), then where do they go?

So if the sinned but didn't repent, they can still go into Heaven "if" they are in a relationship with God?


Yes, especially if it was not a willful transgression

Question:
"willful transgression?" Are you implying that people sin by mistake accidentally (not meaning to do it)?

[ezekiel33]

Apr 8, 2009 23:17:01 GMT -5 Cepha said:

Apr 8, 2009 23:10:44 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

The sin that leads to death is a conscience decision to turn their back on God and their salvation. They go to hell, people who have not comitted this sin have their time to repent.

Ok, but you didn't answer these questions:

Question:
Do you recognize that there are two kinds of sin; (mortal) sin that leads to death and (venial) sin that does not lead to death?

Question:
"willful transgression?" Are you implying that people sin by mistake accidentally (not meaning to do it)?

I think so.

Question:
If a person dies in venial sin, do they go to heaven or to hell?

Question:
If a person doesn't go to hell in venial sin (because their sin is not sin that leads to death) and they cannot get into heaven (because their sin still is sin and no one who has sin can enter heaven), then where do they go?

Sin is sin I have already stated that.

If a person dies outside of a true relationship with God they go to hell

If you are a Christian (which is a lifestyle not just a confession) You go to heaven. If not you go to hell there is not other options.

[Cepha]

EZ,

I'm very confused at how you answer the questions.
I've listed the questions that I believe that you missed.

I think it's important that we define what we each believe to be sin as sin is what leads to Purgatory/Heaven/Hell. Once we get passed defining sin, we can move on what "death" means.


I've numbered them so that when you respond to them, you can do so by number:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. If a person dies in venial sin, do they go to heaven or to hell?

2. If a person doesn't go to hell in venial sin (because their sin is not sin that leads to death) and they cannot get into heaven (because their sin still is sin and no one who has sin can enter heaven), then where do they go?

3. "willful transgression?" Are you implying that people sin by mistake accidentally (not meaning to do it)?

4. Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief (that If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven.)?

5. And, am I to imply that you do not believe in sin that leads to death being different from what the scripture calls sin that doesn't lead to death (mortal sin/venial sin) even though the Bible clearly distinguishes differences between the two?
6. What about the Christians that Jesus condemns to hell in Matthew 7 and that He judged in Revelation 2 (that He said were members of The Church)?

[ezekiel33]

Apr 9, 2009 0:13:37 GMT -5 Cepha said:

EZ,

I'm very confused at how you answer the questions.
I've listed the questions that I believe that you missed.

I think it's important that we define what we each believe to be sin as sin is what leads to Purgatory/Heaven/Hell. Once we get passed defining sin, we can move on what "death" means.


I've numbered them so that when you respond to them, you can do so by number:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. If a person dies in venial sin, do they go to heaven or to hell?

2. If a person doesn't go to hell in venial sin (because their sin is not sin that leads to death) and they cannot get into heaven (because their sin still is sin and no one who has sin can enter heaven), then where do they go?

3. "willful transgression?" Are you implying that people sin by mistake accidentally (not meaning to do it)?

4. Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief (that If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven.)?

5. And, am I to imply that you do not believe in sin that leads to death being different from what the scripture calls sin that doesn't lead to death (mortal sin/venial sin) even though the Bible clearly distinguishes differences between the two?
6. What about the Christians that Jesus condemns to hell in Matthew 7 and that He judged in Revelation 2 (that He said were members of The Church)?

1. Hell

2. If you die in your sins you go to hell

3. yes

4. If we are a child of God then we inherit eternal life there are many scripture that say that.

5. The sin that leads to death is unbelief and or turning from God and your salvation.

6. They were not Christians, they were people who confess Christ as Lord, but live a lifestyle of sin, not righteousness.

[Cepha]

Apr 9, 2009 8:43:54 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

1. If a person dies in venial sin, do they go to heaven or to hell?

1. Hell

Here's where you run into a problem with Scripture.

1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

(this is literally the definition of venial sin)

Question:
The Bible states that this type of sin is sin that doesn't lead unto death. So, how can a person who's sin is not a sin unto death going to go to hell?


=============================================


2. If a person doesn't go to hell in venial sin (because their sin is not sin that leads to death) and they cannot get into heaven (because their sin still is sin and no one who has sin can enter heaven), then where do they go?

2. If you die in your sins you go to hell

Right, but in venial sin, a person doesn't go to hell (as the distinction is shown in 1 John 5:17 where not all sin is sin unto death).

I wasn't asking about "mortal sin" which is sin that leads unto death, but about "venial sin" which is sin that does not lead unto death.

Question:
So, where do these people who haven't sinned unto death end up if not in heaven or hell?


==============================================


3. "willful transgression?" Are you implying that people sin by mistake accidentally (not meaning to do it)?

3. yes

Then it is not a sin. A person cannot sin by mistake. A sin is the action of a person who willfully commits that act. There is no culpability.

For example, a child throws a ball into the street that hits a car's windshield and cause that car to crash killing the driver. The result of that sin is a "killing". He broke a commandment, right?

Question:
Is he now in "mortal sin" and destined to go to hell?

Do you have a scripture that supports this belief that people can sin by mistake?


=============================================



4. Do you have a scripture to support this or is this your personal belief (that If someone who has been serving God with all their heart staying on the narrow path dies having comited a sin maybe unknowingly and has not yet repented of that sin they are still God's child and will go to Heaven.)?

4. If we are a child of God then we inherit eternal life there are many scripture that say that

Question:
Ok, but I requested a scriptural quote.
Book? Chapter? I can't seem to Google the fragment of a sentence that you submitted.

When quoting scripture, you're supposed to list the book it comes from, the chapter and the verse.

Question:
Also, that seems line only a "fragment" of a verse (not the entire verse). Am I right? Or is this your "personal" sentiment?



=============================================




5. And, am I to imply that you do not believe in sin that leads to death being different from what the scripture calls sin that doesn't lead to death (mortal sin/venial sin) even though the Bible clearly distinguishes differences between the two?

5. The sin that leads to death is unbelief and or turning from God and your salvation.

That doesn't answer my question. That defines what you believe to be "mortal sin". The question remains: And, am I to imply that you do not believe in sin that leads to death being different from what the scripture calls sin that doesn't lead to death (mortal sin/venial sin) even though the Bible clearly distinguishes differences between the two?

Question:
Or, in more simpler terms, you don't see a difference between mortal and venial sin as defined in scripture?


============================================


6. What about the Christians that Jesus condemns to hell in Matthew 7 and that He judged in Revelation 2 (that He said were members of The Church)?

6. They were not Christians, they were people who confess Christ as Lord, but live a lifestyle of sin, not righteousness.

Question(s):
So according to you, one must have "works" in order to prove that they are Christian?

Salvation is conditionally based?




.

[ezekiel33]

I dont agree with you, you have yet to even try to support your claim of purgatory.

[Cepha]

Apr 9, 2009 21:27:56 GMT -5 @ezekiel33 said:

I dont agree with you, you have yet to even try to support your claim of purgatory.

It's obvious you don't agree (that's why you're debating me).

Now, could you kindly answer the questions I posed to you?

That is mandatory in a debate.

You have to answer the question posed to you.

Or, you can withdraw from the debate if you wish without completing it.