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Post by teresahrc on Apr 22, 2009 12:48:40 GMT -5
The heretical groups in the early years were mostly people who held to beliefs like Arius, that Jesus was not God.
There were also gnostics and the so-called "Judaizers" that tried to make believers follow all the Old Testament laws.
All of those heresies were refuted by the Apostles, even in the Bible, so why would any Christian want to be a part of one of those groups? Wouldn't they want to be a part of the Churches that were founded by the Apostles?
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 22, 2009 13:24:03 GMT -5
Cepha- depends on which history book you read.
There were Christians outside of the Catholic church...to think otherwise is a little naive, IMO. The christians outside the RCC didn't have the entire Gospel, they only had portions of it...from what they've heard from others or what they had written down...it wasn't the entire thing. That's why they had false beliefs.
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 22, 2009 13:41:28 GMT -5
Emily, what time period are you talking about? Like the really early years (33 AD- 300AD)? Or later on?
I think you are right actually, because there were some groups that (because of Geography usually) didn't have a lot of contact with the rest of the Church. Sometimes that meant their theology turned out different than the rest of the Church. (Yet in my opinion they were no less Christian than the others)
For example, there were the "Monophysites" who are now known as "Coptic Orthodox" in Egypt who did not agree with the decisions at the council of Chalcedon. Because they had different views on the exact nature of the Hypostatic Union, they were kind of cut off from the rest of the Church. But interestingly, their views are still 99% the same as the rest of the Orthodox ( and Catholic ) Church after hundreds and hundreds of years. Further proof that the Catholic Church didn't "invent" theology later on.
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 22, 2009 14:09:23 GMT -5
Both early on and later.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 22, 2009 20:19:43 GMT -5
Cepha- depends on which history book you read. There were Christians outside of the Catholic church...to think otherwise is a little naive, IMO. The christians outside the RCC didn't have the entire Gospel, they only had portions of it...from what they've heard from others or what they had written down...it wasn't the entire thing. That's why they had false beliefs. Not really. The Gnostic groups follow there own "Gospels". The Gospel of John was very popular among the Early Gnostic groups (the Gospel shows the clearest similarity to later gnostic writing style in general, and to them parts of the gospel have a similar dream-like quality to the writing, compare the Gospel of Truth, more especially the Trimorphic Protennoia) (in fact the earliest commentary on this Gospel was done by a Gnostic!), but other NT books, now canonical to us Christians, was rejected by the Early Gnostic. It was not so much that they didn't have access to these books, or heard them being read in the Church, but they simply chose to reject them. I wouldn't call these Christians. Why? Early form of Gnosticism was rejected by the Holy Apostles (1 John for instance). They was never part of the Church. They had they own Jesus that they fabricated in there minds. As for the early heretics, like Arius, they "knew" the Gospels. Remember, the Early Heretics was Priest, Bishops, Archbishop, etc, who would certainty knew Scriptures. Arius was a Priest and Nestorius was Archbishop of Constantinople. But they twisted Scriptures to fit in there own doctrines. They neither followed the Tradition of the Apostolic Churches nor interpreted Scriptures as the Church interpreted. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 22, 2009 20:53:00 GMT -5
So every single person was either a Catholic, an Orthodox, or a heretic. I find that very hard to believe. very hard.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 22, 2009 20:59:40 GMT -5
So every single person was either a Catholic, an Orthodox, or a heretic. I find that very hard to believe. very hard. No, that's history. They were either part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (no such thing existed for 1,000 years as "Catholic vs Orthodox", that came after The Great Schism) or they were heretics or never part of the Church to begin with. The Holy Apostles separated those that were part of the Apostolic Faith and those who were false teachers, or outside of the Apostolic Faith. The Early Church (1st-10th Century) fought against many heretical sects. Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorism, Patripassianism, Adoptionism, are but a few of heresies that was defended by early heretical sects. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church separated what was true Apostolic teachings and what was not (what was in agreement with Sacred Scriptures and Tradition of the Fathers and what was not). I suggest you read Renowned Protestant Scholar J.N.D Kelly "Early Christian Doctrines". In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 22, 2009 21:01:53 GMT -5
hm. I just don't buy it.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 22, 2009 21:04:39 GMT -5
Well, that's history Emily. You can disbelieve history emily, but it doesn't mean it isn't true. I have several historical books that can verified my information. I am not saying anything against history or the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 22, 2009 22:01:54 GMT -5
depends on what history books you read imo.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on Apr 22, 2009 22:37:40 GMT -5
Em, if you dig hard enough you will find the truth of history. It is what it is. Kinda like googling the obama christian terrorist thing....you did not find anything, but if you google the history of the Church you will find your answer.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 23, 2009 0:55:57 GMT -5
depends on what history books you read imo. I have never read any historical book that said otherwise. If you read some reputable historical books, such as the one I mention above, you will see that it agree with my statements. The writings of the Early Church Fathers are clear about this too. Serach about this and you will find the Truth. In Ic.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on Apr 23, 2009 9:30:56 GMT -5
So every single person was either a Catholic, an Orthodox, or a heretic. I find that very hard to believe. very hard. No, that's history. They were either part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (no such thing existed for 1,000 years as "Catholic vs Orthodox", that came after The Great Schism) or they were heretics or never part of the Church to begin with. The Holy Apostles separated those that were part of the Apostolic Faith and those who were false teachers, or outside of the Apostolic Faith. The Early Church (1st-10th Century) fought against many heretical sects. Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorism, Patripassianism, Adoptionism, are but a few of heresies that was defended by early heretical sects. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church separated what was true Apostolic teachings and what was not (what was in agreement with Sacred Scriptures and Tradition of the Fathers and what was not). I suggest you read Renowned Protestant Scholar J.N.D Kelly "Early Christian Doctrines". In IC.XC, Ramon Do you believe the Orthodox church is the one true church like the Catholics believe they are? |
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Post by watchman on Apr 23, 2009 11:05:19 GMT -5
They were hunted down and burned alive,oops  dont ban me again....lol Are you talking about The Consistory of John Calvin? Or the Protestant Witch hunts (where they killed more women and girls than the Spanish Inquisition...150,000 for the Protestants VS 7-15,000 for the Inquisition)? Or was it The 30 Years War that began as Protestants attacking Catholics, but then ended up Protestants killing Protestants? Or was it when Martin Luther sacked Rome and his personal German Army murdered 8,000 innocent women & children?  First of all we both know that the Catholics ruled through the sword and not love, killing whoever stood in their way. Secondly you should know by now that I have no love lost for the protestant either, I think John Calvin was and evil, evil man, and that he has corrupted the teaching of grace almost beyond repair. He was no servant of God. P.S. Do you know who Augustas of Hippo is and what do you think of him? |
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Post by watchman on Apr 23, 2009 11:22:14 GMT -5
This is certainty a interest topic. Am I only one who is wondering why there is so many man-made denominations, where Christ only establish ONE Church?  ;D Protestants did the same thing, even attacking themselves. It certainty was a bloodshed period in Christian History  In IC.XC, Ramon Most non-Catholics are unaware of how Martin Luther hunted down Zwingli and tried to have him burned at the stake or how they all went to war with each other (including Calvin). It is the preverbial "house built upon sand" (aka soil, or man). These churches were literally built by men and named "after" men (as was their bible)...Calvinism, Lutherism, Millernarianism, etc... When I've asked them about this when they'd bring up the Inquisition or stuff like this, then they'd say that "how" their church(es) were started was irrelevant. That only the fact that they were preaching the truth while Catholicism was teaching false doctrine(s) was. So, I'd ask them, "OK, which church was teaching truth?" Since Calvin, Zwingli and Luther all had their own versions of "truth". Never would get an answer back...I'd just get cursed out and insulted. Just because "I" told the truth about how they had different beliefs and different churches and how they themselves hunted themselves down and tried to to kill each other in the name of Christianity. Yep all those men were false teachers, but instead of pointed the finger at others why do you not just accept the crimes of Catholicism as the truth they are? P.S. What man was Millenneialism named after? Millennialism is a doctrine not a denomination. |
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Post by Ramon on Apr 23, 2009 11:52:36 GMT -5
Most non-Catholics are unaware of how Martin Luther hunted down Zwingli and tried to have him burned at the stake or how they all went to war with each other (including Calvin). It is the preverbial "house built upon sand" (aka soil, or man). These churches were literally built by men and named "after" men (as was their bible)...Calvinism, Lutherism, Millernarianism, etc... When I've asked them about this when they'd bring up the Inquisition or stuff like this, then they'd say that "how" their church(es) were started was irrelevant. That only the fact that they were preaching the truth while Catholicism was teaching false doctrine(s) was. So, I'd ask them, "OK, which church was teaching truth?" Since Calvin, Zwingli and Luther all had their own versions of "truth". Never would get an answer back...I'd just get cursed out and insulted. Just because "I" told the truth about how they had different beliefs and different churches and how they themselves hunted themselves down and tried to to kill each other in the name of Christianity. Yep all those men were false teachers, but instead of pointed the finger at others why do you not just accept the crimes of Catholicism as the truth they are? P.S. What man was Millenneialism named after? Millennialism is a doctrine not a denomination. I do not believe any one here is denying what the Roman Church did. But at the same time, Protestants hunted down and kill Catholics and even each other. It wasn't a problem solely on the Roman Church. Even today, Christians are hunted each other (and non Christians are hunting down Christians), perhaps in a less literal sense, but the persecution are still there. You shouldn't point your finger at the Roman Church when Protestants were equally at fault. It certainty was a very evil time in Christian history, but why use the Inquisition as something to "attack" the Roman Church? It is irrelevant....... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Apr 23, 2009 11:59:04 GMT -5
Yep all those men were false teachers, but instead of pointed the finger at others why do you not just accept the crimes of Catholicism as the truth they are? P.S. What man was Millenneialism named after? Millennialism is a doctrine not a denomination. I do not believe any one here is denying what the Roman Church did. But at the same time, Protestants hunted down and kill Catholics and even each other. It wasn't a problem solely on the Roman Church. Even today, Christians are hunted each other know (and non Christians are hunting down Christians), perhaps in a less literal sense, but the persecution are still there. You shouldn't point your finger at the Roman Church when Protestants were equally at fault. In IC.XC, Ramon I point a finger at all of them, the Catholics that killed the so called heretics were not saved and those they were persecuting probably were (The unrighteous always persecute the righteous, and the ''reformers are just as guilty. Calvin himself was a murderer a servant of satan, he was no theologian. He made famous one of the worse most satanic teachings ever widely accept by mainstream christianity. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 23, 2009 12:01:24 GMT -5
By the way who was St. Agustus of Hippo?
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Post by Ramon on Apr 23, 2009 12:14:55 GMT -5
No, that's history. They were either part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (no such thing existed for 1,000 years as "Catholic vs Orthodox", that came after The Great Schism) or they were heretics or never part of the Church to begin with. The Holy Apostles separated those that were part of the Apostolic Faith and those who were false teachers, or outside of the Apostolic Faith. The Early Church (1st-10th Century) fought against many heretical sects. Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorism, Patripassianism, Adoptionism, are but a few of heresies that was defended by early heretical sects. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church separated what was true Apostolic teachings and what was not (what was in agreement with Sacred Scriptures and Tradition of the Fathers and what was not). I suggest you read Renowned Protestant Scholar J.N.D Kelly "Early Christian Doctrines". In IC.XC, Ramon Do you believe the Orthodox church is the one true church like the Catholics believe they are? Let me give some history. Since the time of the Holy Apostles, there was ONE Church, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism, ONE Spirit. For 1,000 years, both the West (the Roman See), and East (the Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Jerusalem) was the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, tracing her roots back to the Holy Apostles. Beginning at the 4th-5th century (or so), tension arose between the West and East (not much to cause a Schism, a little due to geographical separation). Finally, the West and East separated at 1054AD. Issues such the Roman Papacy, the filioque, cause the separation. Now only two Churches today has Apostolic Succession (the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, with the exception with some Eastern Churches such as the Oriental Orthodox Church which also have Apostolic Succession). If Scriptures are to be believed, then there still one Church today that has the fullness of the faith. Who has kept the faith of the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, the Holy Fathers and Mothers of the Church, and the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils? For us Orthodox, we have kept the faith unaltered. For Catholics, the Catholic Church is the one that have kept the faith unaltered. The only way one will know is comparing what each Church teaches and what the Early Church (1st-10th Century) taught. What's in agreement with Sacred Scriptures and Tradition of the Holy Fathers........ In IC,XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on Apr 23, 2009 12:20:04 GMT -5
By the way who was St. Agustus of Hippo? A 4th Century Latin Father. He was a philosopher and theologian. Saint Augustine is one of the most important figures in the development of Western Christianity. For the Apostolic sees of the West and East (and some Protestant Churches) he is venerated as Saint and Holy Father of the Church. The Roman Church honor him more than the Eastern Orthodox Church though (particularly due to some of his heresies that he introduced to the Western Church).... In IC.XC, Ramon |
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dont ban me again....lol
;D