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Post by Ramon on Apr 23, 2009 17:10:01 GMT -5
still believe the early non-Catholic groups of Christians were "heretics" because they didn't have the entire Word of God. It is very strange you still to refuse to accept historical facts (its like someone refusing to believe War World II happened). You can't rewrite history. You can't make a statement in which you fabricated in your mind and spread it as truth or a historical fact. I will suggest you study this and find the truth. May God enlighten you in your study! In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 23, 2009 17:30:02 GMT -5
I'm not doubting they didn't have a True/good doctrine...but I believe they didn't because they didn't have access to the whole Word.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 23, 2009 21:54:16 GMT -5
I'm not doubting they didn't have a True/good doctrine...but I believe they didn't because they didn't have access to the whole Word. I know emily. But your belief contradicts historical facts (the heretics did have access to Scriptures; one of the arguments of Arians was that Scriptures taught Jesus was not God, but he interpreted Scriptures outside the Church. He gave all sorts of Scriptures, but was refuted by Saint Anthansius). Please reread what I said on page 2. What is your historical proof that they didn't have the "whole Word"? Is that your personal belief? Please let me know emily. In the Early Church, there was no such thing as being apart of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and still be a "Christian"! The Holy Apostles certainty believe that; they fought against those false teachers or those who were outside of the Apostolic Faith. Am I wrong emily? In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 23, 2009 22:56:41 GMT -5
Ramon, I believe many things are wrong.
We have a Christian history class at my church, people who have taken it tell me information about early Christians outside of the RCC.
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Post by Ramon on Apr 24, 2009 0:33:14 GMT -5
Ramon, I believe many things are wrong. We have a Christian history class at my church, people who have taken it tell me information about early Christians outside of the RCC. I can alreadly tell your "people" are bias. First, there were so such thing as the Roman Catholic Church for 1,000 years. There was the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The West was named the Roman Catholic Church after the Great Schism (1054AD). The East was named the Eastern Orthodox Church after the Great Schism. That is a historical fact. Both West and East was called, by the Holy Fathers, the Catholic Church (or the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church) but never the Roman Catholic Church (there is a difference). Some Protestants have a very anti-Catholic view on the Early Church, saying that the RCC started at 313AD (or so) and that true Christians was being persecuted by the RCC and other strange teachings..... Second, who were these Christians outside the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church? The Arians? the Gnostic? Don't you realize that the Holy Apostles separated those who were part of the Apostolic Faith and those who were outside of the Apostolic Church? Do you believe these so called Christians were True Christians or False Christians? How can you believe in a fabricated Jesus (a "Jesus" that is not the same as the Jesus proclaim by the Holy Apostles and the Holy Fathers) and still be a true Christian? In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by emily445455 on Apr 24, 2009 10:29:09 GMT -5
I will have to take the classes next time they are available.
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 24, 2009 17:42:50 GMT -5
What "heresies" Ramon? That almost begs for a debate......  teresa |
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 8:59:56 GMT -5
Ahhh, Millerism not Millennialism, as in the Millerites. I got ya. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 9:19:00 GMT -5
What "heresies" Ramon? That almost begs for a debate...... teresa This is a quote from a book ''The believers conditional security'' it refutes the false teaching of OSAS which has its origion with Augustine . '' Not only can almost all the errors of Romanism be traced back to Augustine, but Protestantism as well''. I agree with this statement he was the first to teach the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary, as well as purgatory. He also taught there was no salvation outside of baptism into the Catholic church, and that this present age was the Millennium. All of these are false some more dangerous than others. He also taught Protestant false teaching mainly Calvinistic one taken up and made famous by John Calvin such as unconditional election and perseverance of the saints. Augustine preached a false gospel, ''that you had to be baptized into the Catholic church'', and according to Galatians 1:8 anyone man or angel that preaches another gospel outside of the gospel of Christ should be accursed. So as far as I can tell Augustine was accursed not a saved person, so he had no spiritual insight to teach any truth at all. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 27, 2009 13:37:20 GMT -5
Too bad St. Augustine isn't here to defend himself watchman.
He was NOT the first to teach "the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary" that one is really ridiculous.
Baptism is regenerative though, and who else performs baptisms but the Church? Would someone be baptized "into" paganism?
I don't think that everything Augustine said was true, but that doesn't make him "not a saved person". If having a complete knowledge of all truth was a requirement for being "a saved person" there wouldn't be any saved people.
teresa
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 14:24:51 GMT -5
Too bad St. Augustine isn't here to defend himself watchman. He was NOT the first to teach "the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary" that one is really ridiculous. Baptism is regenerative though, and who else performs baptisms but the Church? Would someone be baptized "into" paganism? I don't think that everything Augustine said was true, but that doesn't make him "not a saved person". If having a complete knowledge of all truth was a requirement for being "a saved person" there wouldn't be any saved people. teresa First of all I was quoting a book, and secondly anyone that teaches you must be baptized into their ''Church''' or their religion rather than the truth that Jesus Christ is the way is accursed and not saved. I do not say that Galatians 1:8 does and last I remembered Galatians 1:8 was a part of God's Word. |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 27, 2009 15:27:48 GMT -5
Just to clarify, this is Galatians 1:8:
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Here, in 1 Corinthians, St. Paul reminds the believers of the gospel he preached to them:
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Colossians 2
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 17:42:02 GMT -5
Just to clarify, this is Galatians 1:8: 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Here, in 1 Corinthians, St. Paul reminds the believers of the gospel he preached to them: 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Colossians 2 Exactly there is nothing about being baptized into any Church denomination or religion mentio0ned in theses passages. Only baptism mentioned in being baptized into Christ. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. |
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 17:43:33 GMT -5
Further more Augustine as well as Calvin murdered those that did not agree with them. No true follower of Christ would do such a thing.
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 27, 2009 18:36:51 GMT -5
the Church is the body of Christ, so you are baptized into the Church. You don't have to call it "the Catholic Church" but when you are baptized you are baptized into "The Church".
Of course the Bible isn't going to tell you to be baptized into a certain denomination, I'm not sure who would ever claim that.
Remember, at the time of St. Augustine, "the Church" was "the Catholic Church" that still exists today because there was no such thing as denominations then.
I have never heard of St. Augustine murdering people. Could you please provide references for such information.
I don't really care to talk about Calvin. I heard enough about him when we lived in Holland, Michigan!!
Peace watchman.
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 19:23:22 GMT -5
You DO NOT have to be baptized into the Catholic Church to be saved, and anyone teaching that the only way to salvation is through baptism into the Catholic church is teaching a false gospel and therefore accursed PERIOD.
Did Augustine ever repent of his false gospel? If not, then he could not have been saved.
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 20:06:03 GMT -5
(Saint) Augustine of Hippo: (354-430) Church Bishop and Father who characterized the Jews as "willfully blind to Holy Scripture, lacking in understanding, and haters of truth." Further, he affirmed: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus." In a sermon on Catechumens, he said: "The Jews hold him, the Jews insult him, the Jews bind him, crown him with thorns, dishonor him with spitting, scourge him, overwhelm [him] with reviling, hang him upon the tree, pierce him with a spear. The Jews killed him." Saint Augustine was also one of the church monsters who advocated genocide against all heretics and pagans.
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 20:12:49 GMT -5
Augustine advocated fines, imprisonment, banishment and moderate floggings, but, according to Henry Chadwick, "would have been horrified by the burning of heretics."[16] In the late Antiquity those burnings appear very rare indeed, the only certain case being the execution of Priscillian and six of his followers in 383.
Remember the righteous is always persecuted by the unrighteous. Nowhere in the N.T. do we see an example of righteous persecuting unrighteous. Anyone persecuting another is unrighteous for doing so, regardless of how mild the persecution may or may not be.
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 20:47:31 GMT -5
The first theory of Just War in Christianity came from St. Augustine of Hippo. It said that heretics who did not convert deserved to be killed.
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Post by watchman on Apr 27, 2009 20:49:37 GMT -5
So what I have found here is that at worse he advocated killing heretics, and at best he advocated just mildly torturing them. Either way this is not the actions of a Christian.
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