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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 9:02:56 GMT -5
ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)
Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)
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ST. THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH (c. A.D. 181)
Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration -- all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God. (To Autolycus 2:16)
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ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)
"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34) www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num2.htm |
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 11:02:54 GMT -5
Here are few more quotes:
For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow...And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).
"Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men's being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration,--as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God." Theopilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, 2:16 (A.D. 181).
" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
"When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'" Tertullian, On Baptism, 12:1 (A.D. 203).
"But give me now your best attention, I pray you, for I wish to go back to the fountain of life, and to view the fountain that gushes with healing. The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and He, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the breath (spirit) of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the layer he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism." Hippolytus of Rome, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 8 (A.D. 217).
"And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerate through the grace given in our baptism." Basil, On the Spirit, 10:26 (A.D. 375).
"This then is what it is to be born again of water and of the Spirit, the being made dead being effected in the water, while our life is wrought in us through the Spirit. In three immersions, then, and with three invocations, the great mystery of baptism is performed, to the end that the type of death may be fully figured, and that by the tradition of the divine knowledge the baptized may have their souls enlightened. It follows that if there is any grace in the water, it is not of the nature of the water, but of the presence of the Spirit." Basil, On the Spirit, 15:35 (A.D. 375).
"The baptism then into Christ means that believers are baptized into Him...And He laid on us the command to be born again of water and of the Spirit, through prayer and invocation, the Holy Spirit drawing nigh unto the water. For since man's nature is twofold, consisting of soul and body, He bestowed on us a twofold purification, of water and of the Spirit the Spirit renewing that part in us which is after His image and likeness, and the water by the grace of the Spirit cleansing the body from sin and delivering it from corruption, the water indeed expressing the image of death, but the Spirit affording the earnest of life." John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith, 9 (A.D. 743).
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 11:05:39 GMT -5
Thank you!
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 11:16:21 GMT -5
Following the Tradition of the Apostles and Fathers, and the authority of Scriptures (John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc), the Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church.
Two Major Protestant Scholars (J.N.D Kelly, and Philip Schaff) admit that all the Early Church Fathers was in agreement with the nature of Holy Baptism.
"As regards [Baptism's] significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins ... the theory that it mediated the Holy Spirit was fairly general. Clement appears to have had this in mind ... and this is clearly what lies behind the description of baptism as 'the seal' (sthragis) or 'the seal of the Son of God,' which the baptized must keep unsullied, in 2 Clement [7, 6; 8, 6] and Hermas. [Similitude Eighth, 2, 2; 6,3; Ninth, 16, 3] According to the latter, we descend into the water 'dead' and come out again 'alive' .. In 'Barnabas' [11, 11; 16, 7] it is the remission of sins which is emphasized; we enter the water weighed down and defiled by our transgressions, only to emerge 'bearing fruit in our hearts, having fear and hope in Jesus in the Spirit.' (J.N.D Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, p. 194)
Justin has left a description [First Apology, 61] of baptism which has become famous ... the chief points he brings out are that it is a washing with water in the Triune name which has as its effects regeneration, illumination and remission of sins. Elsewhere [Dialogue with Trypho, 14, 1; 29, 1] he calls it 'the bath of repentance and knowledge of God,' the living water which alone can cleanse penitents ... a spiritual rite replacing circumcision, the unique doorway to the remission of sins prophesied by Isaiah. [ibid., 44, 4] (p. 194-5)
"This ordinance [Baptism] was regarded in the ancient church as the sacrament of the new birth or regeneration, and as the solemn rite of initiation into the Christian Church, admitting to all her benefits and committing to all her obligations....Its effect consists in the forgiveness of sins and the communication of the Holy Spirit......
"Justin [Martyr] calls baptism 'the water-bath for the forgiveness of sins and regeneration,' and 'the bath of conversion and the knowledge of God.' "It is often called also illumination, spiritual circumcision, anointing, sealing, gift of grace, symbol of redemption, death of sins, etc. Tertullian describes its effect thus: 'When the soul comes to faith, and becomes transformed through regeneration by water and power from above, it discovers, after the veil of the old corruption is taken away, its whole light. It is received into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit; and the soul, which unites itself to the Holy Spirit, is followed by the body.' ...."From John 3:5 and Mark 16:16, Tertullian and other fathers argued the necessity of baptism to salvation....The effect of baptism...was thought to extend only to sins committed before receiving it. Hence the frequent postponement of the sacrament [Procrastinatio baptismi], which Tertullian very earnestly recommends...." (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, volume 2, page 253ff)
"The views of the ante-Nicene fathers concerning baptism and baptismal regeneration were in this period more copiously embellished in rhetorical style by Basil the Great and the two Gregories, who wrote special treatises on this sacrament, and were more clearly and logically developed by Augustine. The patristic and Roman Catholic view on regeneration, however, differs considerably from the one which now prevails among most Protestant denominations, especially those of the more Puritanic type, in that it signifies not so such a subjective change of heart, which is more properly called conversion, but a change in the objective condition and relation of the sinner, namely, his translation from the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of Christ....Some modern divines make a distinction between baptismal regeneration and moral regeneration, in order to reconcile the doctrine of the fathers with the fact that the evidences of a new life are wholly wanting in so many who are baptized. But we cannot enter here into a discussion of the difficulties of this doctrine, and must confine ourselves to a historical statement." [patristic quotes follow] "In the doctrine of baptism also we have a much better right to speak of a -consensus patrum-, than in the doctrine of the Holy Supper." (History of the Christian Church, volume 3, page 481ff, 492)
The Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Church (and all the Apostolic Churches of the East) view on Holy Baptism was the same as the Early Church (1st-10th Century) and Sacred Scriptures agrees with us rather than the Modern Evangelical doctrine of Holy Baptism.
In IC.XC,
Ramon
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 12:48:05 GMT -5
I do not necessarily disagree, however i do have a question. The Gentiles in Acts 10 received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized into water. How is this possible if rebirth comes from water baptism, and not beliefs on Christ?
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 29, 2009 18:22:17 GMT -5
Sorry, watchman, if this question was only for Ramon.
Keep in mind that those Gentiles were still baptized in water. The Apostles didn't say, "well, they were already baptized in the Holy Spirit, so no need for water baptism."
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
Acts 10
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(John 3)
The Church Fathers unanimously interpreted "born of water" in this verse to mean baptism.
St. Paul, after his blinding vision, was not yet "born again" until after He obeyed the Lord's direction to "get up and be baptized, washing your sins away...." Yet, he obviously did have faith in the risen Lord.
That's not to say that if St. Paul died before his baptism(after the vision) that he would have gone to hell! In a sense, he was already walking in the grace of his future baptism by virtue of his God-given desire to obey.
It is all by grace, through faith. If God says that baptism is the way to receive new life, then why question it?
If I told you that I had a gift for you and that I was going meet you at the park to give it to you, would you stay at home, or would you go to the park to get your gift?
The gift is free, but if you want the gift, you should listen to the way that I told you that you would receive it.
teresa
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Post by Ramon on Apr 29, 2009 20:37:54 GMT -5
I do not necessarily disagree, however i do have a question. The Gentiles in Acts 10 received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized into water. How is this possible if rebirth comes from water baptism, and not beliefs on Christ? Good question. When I studied the Book of Acts, this passage stood out because it was unusual. If one reads the Book of Acts, Holy Baptism was always linked to Salvation (2:38; 41; 8:12; 36-38; 9:18; 16:15; 33; 18:8; 19:5; 22:16). Reborn (or rebirth) in Scriptures is always linked to Holy Baptism. The Mystery (or Sacrament) of Chrismation (or Confirmation) came after Holy Baptism, with "the laying on the hands" ( 2:38; 8:17; 9:17; 19:6). However, in this case, they received they received the Holy Spirit before entering in the Baptismal Font. Why? It was a sign that God accepted the Gentiles, and Holy Baptism should not be denied to them (Cf. Saint Bede the Venerable, Commentary on Acts of the Apostles, pg 105). Remember, even though these Gentiles received the Holy Spirit, they still needed to enter in the Baptismal Font. Holy Baptism is always linked to Salvation and never apart from it. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. This was unusual event, but one not not denied the above statement. The Holy Spirit was imparted to them without the means of Holy Baptism, which is the norm in Scriptures for Sanctification, only as a sign. As Teresahrc said, The Church Fathers unanimously interpreted "born of water" in this verse (John 3:3; and others) to mean baptism. The Early Church (1st-10th Century) believed in Baptismal Regeneration. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by watchman on Apr 29, 2009 23:02:26 GMT -5
interesting  |
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Post by teresahrc on Apr 30, 2009 22:17:11 GMT -5
Dude, that's brilliant. I never thought about that, but it makes total sense. Not only did St. Peter need serious convincing (the visions with all the clean and unclean animals) but this "sign" confirms it to all the other Christians. Otherwise, they might have actually been hesitant to baptize them, since it was so hard for Jews to accept Gentiles early on.
It is definitely an exceptional case because everywhere else in the Bible, the water baptism come before baptism in the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic Church also teaches that there may be exceptions to the rule--for example, the thief on the cross. Or, Christians who through no fault of their own were never taught that they should be baptized etc. The Church calls this "the baptism of desire".
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Post by watchman on Apr 30, 2009 23:03:15 GMT -5
Good posts
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Post by alfie on May 1, 2009 0:43:23 GMT -5
Prior to Jesus's death believers were baptized with water before they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. After Jesus was crucified and resurrected believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit first and then baptized with water as a symbol of their salvation. This is what occured in the book of Acts plus it was Gods way of bringing the gentiles into his Church. |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 9:12:25 GMT -5
Dude, that's brilliant. I never thought about that, but it makes total sense. Not only did St. Peter need serious convincing (the visions with all the clean and unclean animals) but this "sign" confirms it to all the other Christians. Otherwise, they might have actually been hesitant to baptize them, since it was so hard for Jews to accept Gentiles early on. It is definitely an exceptional case because everywhere else in the Bible, the water baptism come before baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church also teaches that there may be exceptions to the rule--for example, the thief on the cross. Or, Christians who through no fault of their own were never taught that they should be baptized etc. The Church calls this "the baptism of desire". Don't forget the children who die on the birthing table who never had a chance to "accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior". Heaven or hell?  |
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Post by Ramon on May 1, 2009 9:17:26 GMT -5
After Jesus was crucified and resurrected believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit first and then baptized with water as a symbol of their salvation. This is what occured in the book of Acts plus it was Gods way of bringing the gentiles into his Church. That occur only once in the Book of Acts. The norm was that Early Christians will enter in the Baptismal Font and then the Holy Apostles (and Bishops/Priests) will Christmate (or Confirmation, "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", "laying on the hands") them. Also, Holy Baptism is not a symbol of one's salvation. The Biblical and Historical Christian doctrine of Holy Baptism is not a symbolical act! Please read my above post. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Ramon on May 1, 2009 9:28:48 GMT -5
Dude, that's brilliant. I never thought about that, but it makes total sense. Not only did St. Peter need serious convincing (the visions with all the clean and unclean animals) but this "sign" confirms it to all the other Christians. Otherwise, they might have actually been hesitant to baptize them, since it was so hard for Jews to accept Gentiles early on. It is definitely an exceptional case because everywhere else in the Bible, the water baptism come before baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church also teaches that there may be exceptions to the rule--for example, the thief on the cross. Or, Christians who through no fault of their own were never taught that they should be baptized etc. The Church calls this "the baptism of desire". Correct. That is why I love studying Scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Fathers of the Church. They give light to Scriptures! ;D We also need to understand that while we are bound to his Sacraments (especially the Divine Eucharist, and Holy Baptism), God is not bound by his Holy Mysteries (or Sacraments). A person can be saved outside the Baptismal Font. The Church does say that there are exceptions. But this does not negate the Biblical teachings that Holy Baptism and the Divine Eucharist is needed as a means of receiving the Holy Spirit, the rebirth, etc In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 9:35:01 GMT -5
Prior to Jesus's death believers were baptized with water before they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. After Jesus was crucified and resurrected believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit first and then baptized with water as a symbol of their salvation. This is what occured in the book of Acts plus it was Gods way of bringing the gentiles into his Church. What about The Thief on The Cross that was saved and that went to heaven? He wasn't baptized with water. Were The Apostles ever "baptized" with water? Is that to be found anywhere in scripture? Is there any evidence of this? If it's not specifically spelled out, are we to "assume" that they were automatically? |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 9:46:19 GMT -5
After Jesus was crucified and resurrected believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit first and then baptized with water as a symbol of their salvation. This is what occured in the book of Acts plus it was Gods way of bringing the gentiles into his Church. That occur only once in the Book of Acts. The norm was that Early Christians will enter in the Baptismal Font and then the Holy Apostles (and Bishops/Priests) will Christmate (or Confirmation, "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", "laying on the hands") them. Also, Holy Baptism is not a symbol of one's salvation. The Biblical and Historical Christian doctrine of Holy Baptism is not a symbolical act! Please read my above post. In IC.XC, Ramon Not only is it "not" symbolic, it is a required "work" as ordered by Jesus Christ Himself (one must be baptised with water). |
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Post by Cepha on May 1, 2009 9:49:44 GMT -5
Dude, that's brilliant. I never thought about that, but it makes total sense. Not only did St. Peter need serious convincing (the visions with all the clean and unclean animals) but this "sign" confirms it to all the other Christians. Otherwise, they might have actually been hesitant to baptize them, since it was so hard for Jews to accept Gentiles early on. It is definitely an exceptional case because everywhere else in the Bible, the water baptism come before baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church also teaches that there may be exceptions to the rule--for example, the thief on the cross. Or, Christians who through no fault of their own were never taught that they should be baptized etc. The Church calls this "the baptism of desire". Correct. That is why I love studying Scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Fathers of the Church. They give light to Scriptures! ;D We also need to understand that while we are bound to his Sacraments (especially the Divine Eucharist, and Holy Baptism), God is not bound by his Holy Mysteries (or Sacraments). A person can be saved outside the Baptismal Font. The Church does say that there are exceptions. But this does not negate the Biblical teachings that Holy Baptism and the Divine Eucharist is needed as a means of receiving the Holy Spirit, the rebirth, etc In IC.XC, Ramon Not only for Christians, but also for non-believers. We are no one to judge who goes to Heaven or not. Only God does that. Romans 2 is a prime example of those who "don't have The Law" (Believers) being justified to God by how they literally lived The Law in their lives (even if they didn't have The Word of God). We have to be careful to not impose our own limitations on God's limitless and boundless mercy. |
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 10:19:37 GMT -5
This passage is good evidence that they were baptized. At least 2 disciples ( one was Andrew) were originially one of John the Baptist's disciples. It would seem likely that they would have been baptized by John.
Besides, if Jesus was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" why wouldn't the disciples have been baptized.
35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"
37 When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. 38 Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?"
They said, "Rabbi" (which means "Teacher"), "where are you staying?"
39 "Come," he replied, "and you will see."
So they went and saw where he was staying, and they spent that day with him. It was about four in the afternoon.
40 Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. 41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.
Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter [f]). (John 1)
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Post by teresahrc on May 1, 2009 10:25:25 GMT -5
(Acts 2)
It kinda sounds to me like this is chronological order. First believe(which we assume that those who heard Peter's message had already decided whether or not they believed) then repent, the be baptized in water, then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
teresa
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Post by Ramon on May 1, 2009 11:23:15 GMT -5
(Acts 2) It kinda sounds to me like this is chronological order. First believe(which we assume that those who heard Peter's message had already decided whether or not they believed) then repent, the be baptized in water, then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. teresa Exactly. God's original plan was for Christians to believe, repent, enter into the Baptismal Font (John 3:3), and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Chrismation or "Baptism of the Holy Spirit") (Afterward, the Body and Blood of Christ is given). Only once in the Book of Acts was this chronological order reverse. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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