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Post by alfie on May 1, 2009 22:27:24 GMT -5
(Acts 2) It kinda sounds to me like this is chronological order. First believe(which we assume that those who heard Peter's message had already decided whether or not they believed) then repent, the be baptized in water, then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. teresa Exactly. God's original plan was for Christians to believe, repent, enter into the Baptismal Font (John 3:3), and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Chrismation or "Baptism of the Holy Spirit") (Afterward, the Body and Blood of Christ is given). Only once in the Book of Acts was this chronological order reverse. In IC.XC, Ramon In the book of Acts after Paul was healed from his blindness he was baptized with the Holy Spirit and then baptized with water. |
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Post by Ramon on May 2, 2009 11:31:37 GMT -5
Exactly. God's original plan was for Christians to believe, repent, enter into the Baptismal Font (John 3:3), and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Chrismation or "Baptism of the Holy Spirit") (Afterward, the Body and Blood of Christ is given). Only once in the Book of Acts was this chronological order reverse. In IC.XC, Ramon In the book of Acts after Paul was healed from his blindness he was baptized with the Holy Spirit and then baptized with water. Yes, you reminded me of that. However, wouldn't you agree that the norm in the Early Christians was to enter into the Baptismal Font and then to receive Christmation ("Baptism of the Spirit")?. If you read the Book of the Acts, the norm was that Holy Baptism came first. In both cases, "receiving the Holy Spirit" happened before Holy Baptism for a specific reason. These are exceptions but not the norm. The Holy Spirit can certainty work outside the establish norm that God establish. God is not bound by his own Sacraments (Holy Mysteries). However, to suggest that God original plan was to receive the Holy Spirit and then get Holy Baptism is not taught in the Book of Acts or anywhere in Scriptures. Also, your statement that Holy Baptism is a symbolical act is also not taught in Scriptures and the entire Early Church (1st-10th Century) believe differently. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by teresahrc on May 2, 2009 12:46:51 GMT -5
I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that the two--baptism in water and the Spirit-- always went together in some way in Scriptures. Sometimes one happened first sometimes the other, but they always BOTH happened. They go together and every believer should want BOTH.
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Post by alfie on May 2, 2009 16:41:45 GMT -5
I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that the two--baptism in water and the Spirit-- always went together in some way in Scriptures. Sometimes one happened first sometimes the other, but they always BOTH happened. They go together and every believer should want BOTH. The problem with water baptism is that Catholicism says that is how you become born-again. There are no examples of that in the Bible. There is the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Then there is baptism with water as a symbol of the new birth. After that a believer has to be constantly re-filled with the Holy Spirit. One thing I would like to do is thank the people posting on this thread for making me aware that I should be baptized with water. Before I didn't see any need for it but now I want to do it to show my commitment to the Lord. I was baptized as a baby with sprinkling. Now I would like to baptized with water the way Jesus was. |
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Post by watchman on May 2, 2009 17:01:42 GMT -5
I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that the two--baptism in water and the Spirit-- always went together in some way in Scriptures. Sometimes one happened first sometimes the other, but they always BOTH happened. They go together and every believer should want BOTH. The problem with water baptism is that Catholicism says that is how you become born-again. There are no examples of that in the Bible. There is the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Then there is baptism with water as a symbol of the new birth. After that a believer has to be constantly re-filled with the Holy Spirit. One thing I would like to do is thank the people posting on this thread for making me aware that I should be baptized with water. Before I didn't see any need for it but now I want to do it to show my commitment to the Lord. I was baptized as a baby with sprinkling. Now I would like to baptized with water the way Jesus was. This is awesome alfie, I am glad you now realize the need for baptism. As you said it is not how we are born again but it is something that every born again believe should do ASAS. |
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Post by emily445455 on May 2, 2009 18:00:55 GMT -5
Alfie- Full immersion water baptism after accepting Christ is such an AMAZING experience!!  |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 13:38:20 GMT -5
This passage is good evidence that they were baptized. At least 2 disciples ( one was Andrew) were originially one of John the Baptist's disciples. It would seem likely that they would have been baptized by John. Besides, if Jesus was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" why wouldn't the disciples have been baptized. 35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"
37 When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. 38 Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?"
They said, "Rabbi" (which means "Teacher"), "where are you staying?"
39 "Come," he replied, "and you will see."
So they went and saw where he was staying, and they spent that day with him. It was about four in the afternoon.
40 Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. 41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.
Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter [f]). (John 1) Baptized by John, but not "after" Jesus started His ministry, right? John's baptism was different because they weren't baptized in the name of The Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 15:09:33 GMT -5
The problem with water baptism is that Catholicism says that is how you become born-again. There are no examples of that in the Bible. No, that is how "Jesus" and "Catholicism" state that that is part of how you become born again. John 3:5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.All true, but remember what Jesus said...you MUST be born of water AND spirit. So Catholicism and Jesus are right. Amen!  |
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Post by Cepha on May 3, 2009 15:12:46 GMT -5
Just for Alfie...  Born Again in Water Baptism John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21. John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit). John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism. John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5. Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures. Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism. Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism. Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water. Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism. 2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them. Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
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Post by Ramon on May 4, 2009 10:00:42 GMT -5
The problem with water baptism is that Catholicism says that is how you become born-again. There are no examples of that in the Bible. No, that's how Jesus (John 3:3) and all the Apostolic Churches (West and East) since the first century taught about Holy Baptism. Please read these passages: John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc.Tthe Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. There is the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Then there is baptism with water as a symbol of the new birth. After that a believer has to be constantly re-filled with the Holy Spirit. alfie, your statement is unsupported by Scriptures. Scriptures NEVER said Holy Baptism is just a symbol of the new birth, rather it said it is the new birth (John 3:3; Titus 3:5-6). In the Book of Acts, the Majority of Christians enter into the Baptismal Font before ever getting the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" (Christmation, Acts 2:38, etc; Saint Peter told them they needed to get Baptize first for the forgiveness of sins and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit)! Your view of Holy Baptism is your personal view not Scriptures (which is why you have not given any Scriptures that said Holy Baptism is only a symbolical act). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by alfie on May 4, 2009 17:37:50 GMT -5
The problem with water baptism is that Catholicism says that is how you become born-again. There are no examples of that in the Bible. No, that's how Jesus (John 3:3) and all the Apostolic Churches (West and East) since the first century taught about Holy Baptism. Please read these passages: John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc.Tthe Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. There is the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Then there is baptism with water as a symbol of the new birth. After that a believer has to be constantly re-filled with the Holy Spirit. alfie, your statement is unsupported by Scriptures. Scriptures NEVER said Holy Baptism is just a symbol of the new birth, rather it said it is the new birth (John 3:3; Titus 3:5-6). In the Book of Acts, the Majority of Christians enter into the Baptismal Font before ever getting the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" (Christmation, Acts 2:38, etc; Saint Peter told them they needed to get Baptize first for the forgiveness of sins and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit)! Your view of Holy Baptism is your personal view not Scriptures (which is why you have not given any Scriptures that said Holy Baptism is only a symbolical act). In IC.XC, Ramon Baptism has its roots in the Jewish mikveh! The Hebrew word tevilah (translated "immersion") is used in the benediction recited during the mikveh ritual. The ritual washings and cleansings commanded in Torah and the other writings formed the basis for the rabbinical mikveh laws. The Jews emphasized that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that as the mikveh cleanses the unclean, so does the Holy One cleanse Israel (My 8:9). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently in the soil of these Jewish scriptures and traditions. That is, both baptism and mikveh depict by an outward act the inward transaction of faith; and both declare that only the Holy One has the power to cleanse men's hearts and lives. |
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Post by Ramon on May 6, 2009 10:06:25 GMT -5
No, that's how Jesus (John 3:3) and all the Apostolic Churches (West and East) since the first century taught about Holy Baptism. Please read these passages: John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc.Tthe Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. alfie, your statement is unsupported by Scriptures. Scriptures NEVER said Holy Baptism is just a symbol of the new birth, rather it said it is the new birth (John 3:3; Titus 3:5-6). In the Book of Acts, the Majority of Christians enter into the Baptismal Font before ever getting the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" (Christmation, Acts 2:38, etc; Saint Peter told them they needed to get Baptize first for the forgiveness of sins and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit)! Your view of Holy Baptism is your personal view not Scriptures (which is why you have not given any Scriptures that said Holy Baptism is only a symbolical act). In IC.XC, Ramon Baptism has its roots in the Jewish mikveh! The Hebrew word tevilah (translated "immersion") is used in the benediction recited during the mikveh ritual. The ritual washings and cleansings commanded in Torah and the other writings formed the basis for the rabbinical mikveh laws. The Jews emphasized that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that as the mikveh cleanses the unclean, so does the Holy One cleanse Israel (My 8:9). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently in the soil of these Jewish scriptures and traditions. That is, both baptism and mikveh depict by an outward act the inward transaction of faith; and both declare that only the Holy One has the power to cleanse men's hearts and lives. Yes, Holy Baptism has its roots in Judaism, yet Christ and the Holy Apostles gave a whole new meaning to the Christian Baptism (as they did to other aspects of Judaism). I suggest you read the above Scriptures. You still ignoring the above Scriptures and what the Book of Acts said (the norm was that the Early Christians will enter into the Baptismal Font and then receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit). Christianity also has its roots in Judaism yet Christianity differ from Judaism in several aspects. Based on John 3:3,5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5-6, 1 Cor. 6:11, Gal. 3:27, 1 Peter 3:2, Roman 6, etc, the Church since the beginning has always linked Regeneration (or rebirth) with Holy Baptism. It is through the Baptismal Font, with the power of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn unto spiritual life, our sins are washed away, and we become fully in communion with Christ and His Holy Church. Ignoring the issue doesn't you get any where. In IC.XC, Ramon |
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