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Post by watchman on May 16, 2009 22:18:25 GMT -5
I have a question, just to see if I am going crazy or still somewhat in touch with reality.... Is there anyone else here outside of cepha that thinks a person can get into Heaven solely on the fact that their spouse accepted Christ as their Savior, even if they refuse to? Whoever said that a person that actively and knowingly rejects Christ is saved? I didn't. Why are you lieing to misrepresent me? And I have a question for you: You said that "the truth is..." The Pope spoke out against Notre Dame and allowing Obama to speak there. I challenged you to provide the evidence since The Vatican stated on CNN that they weren't opposed to him speaking there. Why are you misrepresenting what our Pope stated? #1 Now your are saying you do not believe that when someone spouse gets saved they are automatically saved because of it? Then what did you mean by this? By the way, unbelieving spouses are saved by their believing spouse. So, since The Bible states two things, neither is absolute. 1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.That means, that they are saved for God would not deny any holy person (including unbelieving children) heaven. #2 This is the wrong thread for the pope question. #3 I do not believe anything CNN says. |
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2009 12:22:15 GMT -5
I have a question, just to see if I am going crazy or still somewhat in touch with reality.... Is there anyone else here outside of cepha that thinks a person can get into Heaven solely on the fact that their spouse accepted Christ as their Savior, even if they refuse to? I do not believe this. So you don't believe in The Bible either CC? Wow. Sad. Don't abandon The Bible CC. Stick to The Word of God when it says that The Unbelieving Spouse is sanctified because of The Believing Spouse. Please, accept that CC. Please accept The Word of God. |
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2009 12:41:58 GMT -5
Whoever said that a person that actively and knowingly rejects Christ is saved? I didn't. Why are you lieing to misrepresent me? And I have a question for you: You said that "the truth is..." The Pope spoke out against Notre Dame and allowing Obama to speak there. I challenged you to provide the evidence since The Vatican stated on CNN that they weren't opposed to him speaking there. Why are you misrepresenting what our Pope stated? #1 Now your are saying you do not believe that when someone spouse gets saved they are automatically saved because of it? Then what did you mean by this? I don't understand your question. My positions don't contradict each other. In fact, they are scriptures I quoted. What is it that you don't understand that you have to ask me? The Bible says that an unbelieving spouse is saved by the believing spouse. Period. Why can't you accept that Biblical truth? It doesn't say "The unbelieving spouse of the believing spouse is saved even if the unbelieving spouse rejects Christ." Well, since you seem to be ignoring it on every other thread, I figure I'd stalk you with it until you either retract that as the lie that it is and apologize for slandering The Pope of The Catholic Church or you provide the evidence of what you said is "the truth". Come on now...out with it. This isn't a debate forum. Here, we can go off topic. So, where is your evidence that "the truth is" that The Pope spoke out against Notre Dame? Are you ever going to respond to my request for proof? And if not, why not? Of course not. But it wasn't CNN that said it...it was a spokesman for The Vatican who speaks for The Pope. Still don't believe it? |
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Post by watchman on May 17, 2009 14:05:14 GMT -5
So you don't believe in The Bible either CC? Wow. Sad. Don't abandon The Bible CC. Stick to The Word of God when it says that The Unbelieving Spouse is sanctified because of The Believing Spouse. Please, accept that CC. Please accept The Word of God. There is nothing in the Bible that would even slightly indicate that someone can get into heaven because their spouse is saved. You have gravely misinterpreted one verse to the exclusion of the whole of scripture. Salvation is personal between us and God Jesus is the only mediator. No one can get you into heaven but you. |
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2009 14:20:04 GMT -5
There is nothing in the Bible that would even slightly indicate that someone can get into heaven because their spouse is saved. 1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. What does the word " sanctified" mean to you Watchman as used by Paul in that scripture? (pick one) sanctify 1. to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate.
2. to purify or free from sin: Sanctify your hearts.
3. to impart religious sanction to; render legitimate or binding: to sanctify a vow.
4. to entitle to reverence or respect.
5. to make productive of or conducive to spiritual blessing. Ok then, properly "interpret" it how you see it then. What does it mean when the unbelieving spouse is sanctified and made holy by the believing spouse? What about intercessors? They interceded between us and God, right? Ok then. Correct the scripture (since it obviously disagrees with your personal interpretation). What did Paul mean when he said that in 1 Cor 7:14? |
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2009 14:20:30 GMT -5
You keep saying what it isn't, but you've yet to say what it actually means.
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 17, 2009 16:58:18 GMT -5
Im sorry cepha, but if i did not believe in God and denied him completely...i would not make it to heaven. I believe that is in the Bible. I just dont believe that it makes sense, it contradicts the laws of getting into heaven.
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Post by Cepha on May 17, 2009 18:07:24 GMT -5
Im sorry cepha, but if i did not believe in God and denied him completely...i would not make it to heaven. I believe that is in the Bible. I just dont believe that it makes sense, it contradicts the laws of getting into heaven. That's because you don't understand the laws of heaven. What does the scripture say the unbelieving spouse of a believing spouse is saved because of the believing spouse? You don't believe that scripture? And the Bible is full of contradictions. Just because you don't understand how they relate to each other, it don't mean that their wrong. You're the one who's wrong because scripture is never wrong. You completely contradict that scripture I posted. And...you contradict Romans 2 that states that non-believers are saved by how they live their life. If they live righteously, then they will be justified (saved). Also, here is the actual Catholic CHURCH teaching on salvation for non-believers (I can understand Watchman and Protestants not accepting salvation for those who don't believe, but you? A Catholic?): www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 17, 2009 19:04:26 GMT -5
Ok, i tried to read all that info... could you pull the quote from there where the church stands by this belief?
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Post by watchman on May 17, 2009 20:28:58 GMT -5
You keep saying what it isn't, but you've yet to say what it actually means. It really doesn't matter if I do know exactly what it means or not. I know what it doesn't mean, and it doesn't mean the spouse has a free ride to Heaven. |
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Post by Cepha on May 18, 2009 10:01:47 GMT -5
Ok, i tried to read all that info... could you pull the quote from there where the church stands by this belief? It's in the Catechism. Even those who are not Christians are able to be saved by God's limitless mercy. Hold on...(sorry I wasn't more specific, but I was on my way out when I posted that last post): The Catholic Church affirms the truth of this statement, yet also teaches that non-believers can be saved: "Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to his grace" (Lumen Gentium, no. 16). www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9111chap.aspVATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI. www.zenit.org/article-14703?l=englishSo CC, don't listen to non-Catholics when it comes to your Catholic faith. Either conform your faith to what The Church teaches, or quit. ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 18, 2009 10:10:34 GMT -5
It really doesn't matter if I do know exactly what it means or not. I know what it doesn't mean, and it doesn't mean the spouse has a free ride to Heaven. Oh, I see. Just because you can't "prove" it one way, the other way still has to be "your" way even if what you believe (and cannot prove) is anti-biblical. Ok. What does sanctified mean to you Watchman as used by Paul in the scripture that I posted that proved that the unbelieving spouse is made holy by the believing spouse and that their children are also made holy? |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 18, 2009 11:47:46 GMT -5
Ok, i tried to read all that info... could you pull the quote from there where the church stands by this belief? It's in the Catechism. Even those who are not Christians are able to be saved by God's limitless mercy. Hold on...(sorry I wasn't more specific, but I was on my way out when I posted that last post): The Catholic Church affirms the truth of this statement, yet also teaches that non-believers can be saved: "Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to his grace" (Lumen Gentium, no. 16). www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9111chap.aspVATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI. www.zenit.org/article-14703?l=englishSo CC, don't listen to non-Catholics when it comes to your Catholic faith. Either conform your faith to what The Church teaches, or quit. ;D Cepha im sorry but nothing in your post said anything about your spouse being saved because he was a non believer and their spouse gave them sanctity. Your post accourding to the ccc is that someone who does not know Christ do to never knowing him can be saved and also that people outside the Catholic Church can be saved. However it does not say that someone who DENIES Christ and knows about Christianity but just denies it, but is married to a Christian, will be saved. Sorry its not in there and i will talk with a priest about it! |
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Post by cradlecathlic27 on May 18, 2009 11:49:24 GMT -5
Also, dont tell me what "I" need to do concerning "MY" beliefs, therefore they are mine and not yours. Im pretty sure im sitting good with my God!
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Post by Cepha on May 18, 2009 12:33:47 GMT -5
Cepha im sorry but nothing in your post said anything about your spouse being saved because he was a non believer and their spouse gave them sanctity. How many times have I already posted it in this thread? Why are you ignoring it? 1 Corinthians 7:14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. Why can't you accept that?  Yeah? And, people who don't believe in Jesus aren't outside of The Catholic Church? No, the Bible does that...(that is, if you believe that "not" believing is denying Christ): 1 Corinthians 7:14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. Knock yourself out...he's going to tell you the same thing The Bible and The CCC tells you. A person cannot deny Christ unless they have accepted Him first! The CCC says that and the scriptures I posted state that a person who does not believe is saved through the believing spouse (as are their children). Ok, tell me what you believe the scritpure there means? (And don't give me that lame "I'll can tell you what it don't mean..." stuff because you already saw me destroy that kind of thinking! LOL!)  |
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Post by Cepha on May 18, 2009 12:41:22 GMT -5
Also, dont tell me what "I" need to do concerning "MY" beliefs, therefore they are mine and not yours. Im pretty sure im sitting good with my God! CradleCATHOLIC, The Church isn't named The Catholic Church after your name! LOL! The Church came first...you must bow down to it and accept all of it's teachings as written and conform to it in order for you to be a Catholic (it's not "believe what you want to believe")! Now! Bow Down! LOL! |
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Post by watchman on May 18, 2009 13:50:10 GMT -5
It really doesn't matter if I do know exactly what it means or not. I know what it doesn't mean, and it doesn't mean the spouse has a free ride to Heaven. Oh, I see. Just because you can't "prove" it one way, the other way still has to be "your" way even if what you believe (and cannot prove) is anti-biblical. Ok. What does sanctified mean to you Watchman as used by Paul in the scripture that I posted that proved that the unbelieving spouse is made holy by the believing spouse and that their children are also made holy? The Bible states one must believe to be saved, and if one does not believe they will be damned. Any view outside of that , such as if your spouse believes you are automatically saved, is the anti biblical view. You hold to a false doctrine, that cannot be supported with scripture, and I would doubt is supported by Catholicism regardless of your claims. |
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Post by Cepha on May 18, 2009 13:57:42 GMT -5
The Bible states one must believe to be saved, and if one does not believe they will be damned. Jesus states that one has to be born again of water and spirit to be saved. The thief on the cross wasn't born again of water. So, does the lack of one thing violate the other statement? And...the Bible states LITERALLY that the unbelieving spouse is "sanctified" by the believing spouse. What does " sanctified" mean to you in that passage? Deny this... 1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. What does sanctified mean to you? |
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Post by watchman on May 18, 2009 14:04:32 GMT -5
I need not deny the scripture, just state the fact that it doesn't mean what you claim that it does.
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Post by Cepha on May 18, 2009 14:14:43 GMT -5
I need not deny the scripture, just state the fact that it doesn't mean what you claim that it does. Forget about what I claim. What does it mean to you? Exactly what it says? And, what does " sanctified" mean to you as used by Paul in that scripture? |
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