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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:19:12 GMT -5
What did Ireneaus "believe" and teach?
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:25:17 GMT -5
Let us examine one of his teachings about The Universal Christian Church "at" organized in Rome in the 2nd Century...
"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this,
to reckon up the successions of all the Churches,
we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner,
whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory,
or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings;
[we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles,
of the very great, the very ancient,
and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome
by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul;
as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men,
which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops.
For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church,
on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere,
inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously
by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 9:27:01 GMT -5
Does anybody disagree with The Church Father Ireneaus who by the way was taught by Polycarp who was directly taught by Saint John The Apostle?
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Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 9:37:59 GMT -5
Let's see.
Apostolic Succession:
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).
"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).
"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).
"t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).
"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).
The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ:
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).
"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).
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Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 9:41:22 GMT -5
He accepted certain parts of Scriptures not accepted by Protestants:
"Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ‘No man sees us,’ shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: ‘O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart’ [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, ‘You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous’ [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]" (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [A.D. 189]; Daniel 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).
"Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left on the earth, should both be under the rule of the saints and to minister to this [new] Jerusalem and that [his] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem toward the east and behold the joy which comes to you from God himself. Behold, your sons whom you have sent forth shall come: They shall come in a band from the east to the west. . . . God shall go before with you in the light of his splendor, with the mercy and righteousness which proceed from him’ [Bar. 4:36—5:9]" (ibid., 5:35:1; Baruch was often considered part of Jeremiah, as it is here).
He believe in Baptismal Regeneration:
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
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Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 10:06:21 GMT -5
He believe the Most Holy Theotokos was the New Eve. Veneration to the Most Holy Virgin Mother of God:
"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith." (Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22,in ANF,I:455).
The Indefectibility of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church:
"But [it has, on the other hand, been shown], that the preaching of the Church is everywhere consistent, and continues in an even course, and receives testimony from the prophets, the apostles, and all the disciples--as I have proved--through [those in] the beginning, the middle, and the end, and through the entire dispensation of God, and that well-grounded system which tends to man's salvation, namely, our faith; which, having been received from the Church, we do preserve, and which always, by the Spirit of God, renewing its youth, as if it were some precious deposit in an excellent vessel, causes the vessel itself containing it to renew its youth also. For this gift of God has been entrusted to the Church, as breath was to the first created man, for this purpose, that all the members receiving it may be vivified; and the [means of] communion with Christ has been distributed throughout it, that is, the Holy Spirit, the earnest of incorruption, the means of confirming our faith, and the ladder of ascent to God. 'For in the Church," it is said, "God hath set apostles, prophets, teachers,' and all the other means through which the Spirit works; of which all those are not partakers who do not join themselves to the Church, but defraud themselves of life through their perverse opinions and infamous behaviour. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth." (Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:24 ,in ANF,I:458).
The Unity of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church:
"As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10 ,in ANF,I:331)
Holy Tradition includes Scriptures and those which was preserved by the Holy Church:
The apostles at that time first preached the Gospel but later by the will of God, they delivered it to us in the Scriptures, that it might be the foundation and pillar of our faith'
Against Heresies(AH) 3,1
'Since, therefore, the Tradition from the apostles DOES thus EXIST in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him'
AH 3,5,1
"Through none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those through whom the gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God delivering to us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of our faith...But when, the heretics are Scriptures,as if they were wrong, and unauthoritative, and were variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were ignorant of tradition...And when we challenge them in turn what that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition, saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested 'on the contrary' in the whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth...And, since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles'
Against Heresies 3,1-3
For Irenaeus tradition included three things:
1) The faith that was handed on-oral or in writing
'For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us their writings? Would it not be necessary to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those whom they did commit the Churches?'
AH 3,4:1
2) A living authority
"Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church...those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have recieved the certain gift of truth..."
Against Heresies 26:2
3) Transmission and preservation by succession.
"In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is MOST abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed in truth"
Against Heresies 3,3:3
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 10:25:20 GMT -5
Whoa! TMI! (too much information!) LOL! One thing at a time!  Let's take the first quote (the one I posted) and see what it is that he is saying there! |
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Post by Ramon on May 8, 2009 10:29:35 GMT -5
Whoa! TMI! (too much information!) LOL! One thing at a time! Let's take the first quote (the one I posted) and see what it is that he is saying there! LOL! I got carry away. Sorry! LOL. Should I delete my posts...? You right....lets take one teaching at a time. |
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Post by Cepha on May 8, 2009 10:32:41 GMT -5
Whoa! TMI! (too much information!) LOL! One thing at a time! Let's take the first quote (the one I posted) and see what it is that he is saying there! LOL! I got carry away. Sorry! LOL. Should I delete my posts...? You right....lets take one teaching at a time. No, leave them up...we can use them as a reference (saves me some Googling! LOL!) |
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Post by watchman on May 8, 2009 18:52:15 GMT -5
Does anybody disagree with The Church Father Ireneaus who by the way was taught by Polycarp who was directly taught by Saint John The Apostle? I don't know do you, they were both premillennialist you know? |
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2009 10:05:16 GMT -5
Does anybody disagree with The Church Father Ireneaus who by the way was taught by Polycarp who was directly taught by Saint John The Apostle? I don't know do you, they were both premillennialist you know? I'm not up on that milli, mi, well, you know, that "stuff".  However, I asked a direct question: Do "you" disagree with The Church Father Ireneaus who by the way was taught by Polycarp who was directly taught by Saint John The Apostle? |
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Post by Ramon on May 9, 2009 10:21:20 GMT -5
Does anybody disagree with The Church Father Ireneaus who by the way was taught by Polycarp who was directly taught by Saint John The Apostle? I don't know do you, they were both premillennialist you know? Yes, Most Ante-Nicene Fathers did so, but it was not the universal teaching of the Church and was condemn in the First Holy Ecumenical Council of Nicaea. But what do you say about Saint Ireneaus? I believe you said somewhere that you do not disagree with Saint Ireneaus in his teachings.... (?). In IC.XC, Ramon |
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Post by Cepha on May 9, 2009 13:21:57 GMT -5
That brings up a good point...if someone who teaches in God's name is wrong some of the time, can they be trusted all of the time?
Hmmm...Either we can accept teachers' teachings that aren't 100% in line with Christianity or we must reject everything they teach?
If we accept "some" of what they teach, are we then picking and choosing (Cafetiria Christianity)?
Well, let's again revisit what Saint Ireneaus taught and "pick and choose" what The Church said was ok to believe in:
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Post by watchman on May 9, 2009 15:39:56 GMT -5
I don't know do you, they were both premillennialist you know? Yes, Most Ante-Nicene Fathers did so, but it was not the universal teaching of the Church and was condemn in the First Holy Ecumenical Council of Nicaea. But what do you say about Saint Ireneaus? I believe you said somewhere that you do not disagree with Saint Ireneaus in his teachings.... (?). In IC.XC, Ramon You want to know if I agree with him while admitting you do not. That strikes me as odd? |
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Post by Ramon on May 9, 2009 18:26:50 GMT -5
Didn't you say somewhere that you agree with everthing he said (forgive me if this is incorrect)? No one have ever denied that he was wrong in a few issues, but the majority on what he said was Orthodox, in agreement with every Father, ante-Nicene and post nicene. When the Fathers agree, this is what we follow. It seems you disagree with them when they make pro-Catholics/Orthodox statements.
In Ic.XC,
Ramon
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Post by watchman on May 10, 2009 0:11:00 GMT -5
Didn't you say somewhere that you agree with everthing he said (forgive me if this is incorrect)? No one have ever denied that he was wrong in a few issues, but the majority on what he said was Orthodox, in agreement with every Father, ante-Nicene and post nicene. When the Fathers agree, this is what we follow. It seems you disagree with them when they make pro-Catholics/Orthodox statements. In Ic.XC, Ramon I do not know everything he said, so I cannot say I agree with everything he said. However he was taught his eschatology by Polycarp, who was taught by John who wrote Revelation and was shown the end in vivid detail. If I had to choose whether to believe John, Polycarp, and Ireneas or the RCC or othadox churches on end time issues, I would definitely go with Ireneas |
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2009 12:06:09 GMT -5
Yes, Most Ante-Nicene Fathers did so, but it was not the universal teaching of the Church and was condemn in the First Holy Ecumenical Council of Nicaea. But what do you say about Saint Ireneaus? I believe you said somewhere that you do not disagree with Saint Ireneaus in his teachings.... (?). In IC.XC, Ramon You want to know if I agree with him while admitting you do not. That strikes me as odd? Objection you honor! The witness is non-responsive! LOL! |
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Post by watchman on May 12, 2009 12:26:47 GMT -5
LOL |
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2009 12:34:49 GMT -5
LOL ;D |
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Post by Cepha on May 12, 2009 13:49:59 GMT -5
I do not know everything he said, so I cannot say I agree with everything he said. However he was taught his eschatology by Polycarp, who was taught by John who wrote Revelation and was shown the end in vivid detail. If I had to choose whether to believe John, Polycarp, and Ireneas or the RCC or othadox churches on end time issues, I would definitely go with Ireneas But what about when Ireneaus defends The Roman Catholic Church/Eastern Orthodox Church(es)? |
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